@85 - The argument I'm making has a long history. There is a tension between the irrational emotional desire for revenge, and the rational desire to rehabilitate. Revenge punishment has the effect of making the punished more criminal like. Rehabilitation makes victims feel that the criminal got off too easy.

Not all of us humans innately feel an emotional desire for revenge. That desire is hard coded, genetically, and we don't all have all the coding.

And conversely, not all humans are affected by the social contract that revenge enforces. Sociopaths will never be brought back into line - they are incapable of remorse.

The social contract that revenge is effective at upholding is only suitable for small groups, and doesn't work well in our modern societies.

@77 who said "We' maintain the moral authority to punish crime because we (in theory) apply consistent punishments."

Rehabilitation and punishment are practically at odds. Rehabilitation is in societies better interest. Who is benefitted if the punishment makes everyone worse off? If jail practically served to make criminals more criminal.

I agree, Eustace. I'm nothing but a common civilian. Go on with your in jokes.

Seeing too much meaning, making connections that are unwarranted, is past being creative. It is over the ballpark and into outer space.

Random connections are not creative. Lay off the weed, dude.

@68 Bobo: You want to summarize? I was neither entertained nor informed. Use a sock next time.

"where is the sin in execution?"

Your rhetorical question posits that sin is a social construct, and that the anti-social are outside of social merits.

Sometimes I daydream of deaths to the unworthy also.

" Let them be punished and shunned."

Why? You lack imagination to realize reality. Push yourself and see that some people are foreign to concepts of punishment. You can't make a sociopath feel remorse. Punish for eternity, don't punish at all, whatever. The impetus to punish in that case is all about you, and only you.

Tenn, sounds like you'll come out of Grandma's gitmo with your sense of humor intact. I'm not sure if I'm grateful at my loss of innocence about loons. I don't feel scarred anymore, so I guess it's cool.

" As someone who's currently living with someone who's a fucking loon because of some issue with her brain..."

Been there. Doing that is traumatic. You've probably already sourced websites of people in your similar situation. Which type of loony is she? Some version of BPD? From what I understand most people find that the intriguing loons have extra special spice that normals don't have. Loons are addictive and thrilling and push buttons that normals don't. But try not to be with a loon for more than a year. No matter your fortitude, a loon will win by attrition.

"People like us probably died when there were leopards running free."

Absolutely. Societies have classes and social roles. Neither worker bee nor soldier and nor artist can survive without the larger clan. A truly egalitarian society would quickly be overrun.

"Mostly, these remind me of how poor our criminal justice system is, and how lovely it would be if we could help these sort of men. It would be the greatest scientific achievement of mankind to manage good rehabilitation."

I'm puzzled why at age 9 I shared your sentiment that revenge is folly. I've heard recent news that some emotions are genetically hard wired and not shared by all humans. Apologies for not digging up links, but it's more than gossip or speculation to group personality types genetically. Some of us aren't into spectator sports, and some of us aren't into revenge.

A rational and empathetic view wants happiness for the jailed.

Great post pipenta. If BB were a cofee shop and you were reading from the stage, you'd have created a receptive audience of groupies. In a better world that post would get you laid.

"On the main point, I watch a minuscule fraction of the amount of TV I used to, but I haven't experienced any 'cognitive surplus'- I just wonder how I found time to watch so much TV in the past."

I have periods of creative urge. Hours, days, years. I don't understand the tides of creativity. It's like being horny; when you are not, you don't miss it and feel no shame.

Some TV is thought provoking. I'm informed by the social dynamics of House. The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy is a fun-house of social commentary.

Ya, a hip flask is about 11 ounces. It takes at least a hip flask for regular drinker to get a drunk on. A hard core alkie might need two, but I doubt most people could sustain drinking two per day without serious health consequenses. You'd only need one in five people to be regular drinkers to allow the rest to be teetotalers.

Those figures seem awfully low. 3 gallons of ethanol is only about 5 40ounce bottles of rum, or 20 hip flasks. Maybe a months worth of fuel for a moderate alcoholic.

If you don't like the connotations of "propaganda", think instead in terms of neuro-linguistic-programming, or seduction, or poetic resonance, or emotionally gripping narrative. Since rationality rarely moves opinion, we must marshall all forces.

"In over a decade of active participation in a variety of forums I have seen very few instances of anyone changing their mind about anything substantive. "

This insight is the reason why I've decided that writing must include propaganda to be effective.

Many studies are showing that youths need challenges in order to develop to potential, in much the same way as toddlers need hugs.

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ talks about how being coddled leads to becoming a socially concervative authoritarian.

Keep in mind that governments can sway whole populations, and offspring, by raising fear levels.

Keep in mind why the security theater.

@6 GTMOOGLE who said "Why make yourself feel bad just because you are *merely* a fantastically complicated being in profoundly varied and rational universe?"

Ahh, that's fine meta-narrative. A rose with mallic acid ferment sparkle, complex character and a fine oaky finish. Determinism and and fun, mixed all up akimbo.

@46 - I doubt the US is in any position to "blockade all goods and services from China" China owns a large hunk of the US national debt, and has tremendous influence on US currency prices. China has many powers and influences over the US. I'd argue that they have much more influence in Washington than do protestors.

The trick to not losing your post is to log in in another window, then refresh the unsuccessfully added post.

to #18:50% of College Students Think We See Like Superman, Despite Perception Course

http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/03/50-of-college-students-think-we-see.php

I didn't pull the 40% figure out of my poop hole. If you are familiar with Piaget's classification of cognitive styles, people tend to grow through organizational patterns. One young pattern is called pre-rational, or magical thinking. Some folks don't grow out of it. Roughly 40% of adults are overgrown children. They believe bible stories. Or democracy stories.

@15: Most people are a shill for whatever they learned when they were 5. "Jeesus loves me yes I know, cause my Mommy told me so". At least 40% of the population is not capable of altering the views that they aquired during these formative years.

This goes also for those that believe in the mystical powers of democratic free will.

Faith based political action has been shown to be effective. In cities where people gather in circles on the full moon, hold hands, and chant to drum beats, their prayers are heard loud and clear and reverberate. Individuals can make a difference.

"Hey, throwing money down that wising is innefectual."

"Oh ya? Well, what would you do?"

Snappy comeback, but it doesn't address the issue of throwing money down wishing wells.

I once attended a 30 minute silent tong-len meditation for Tibet. Mabye 10 years ago now.

That kind of wishful thinking is well and good, but it is political to the same degree that writing letters to Santa is economic.

Takuan, I welcome links to outside sources of info, but I have a slow internet connection not suitable for you-tube, and prefer to read.

I'm also of the opinion that sources summarized by the reader render their potency more obvious.

What I'm taking from Takuan is the mood that "well, we have to do something, if nothing else, at least keep the spirit of revolution alive!" Which has merit.

What I'm hearing from Antinous is that a country with the economic might of China, a country that owns the US debt, is subject political pressures that arise from protestors outside it's border. You say my opinions are overly negative, and you ask me to do homework when I ask you to back up your claims of understanding how power works in the real world. At least Takuan is clinging to feeling good, for the sake of optimism. You are sounding merely deluded.

Can you site historical examples of protests leading to trade status changes? I question the causal link.

Historical examples of regime change of societies with a similar social structure to China. What were the necessary causal conditions?

Historical examples of more moderate leadership arising out of leadership change forced by dissent.

Takuan is inviting me to state a clear course of action, Antinous is pointing out that rephrasing my views is boring.

Catch 22.

So I'll turn it back on the both of you. State how you see cause and effect working, and your part in it.

And you have 17 posts. It's not like my blabber pure vacuum.

Nuance is difficult to convey. I advocate voting. I advocate political action. I advocate being socially aware.

I also advocate understanding causes and effects, and not confuse magical wishful thinking and opinion with political change. In the opening credits of The Simpsons, who is driving the car, Maggie or Marge? Thinking you are somehow at the wheel when you are at a political protest is not effective.

Nuance.

I don't propose a method to get the whole planet to do anything. I'm not living in a lucid dream where I have powers of flight and morphing objects. In the world I live in, I have very limited effect on my environment. I limit my own resource use, study the world, and share insights and pleasures socially.

A false sense of power is not power - it is being duped into not really manipulating the system. An ineffectual vote disenfranchises more than no vote, because you think you've already given your input and done your part. That kind of politics is just make-up over pustules. The system, at this point, is a runaway train disaster, and the only solutions I can see are scaling back technology and population drastically, and that can only happen person by person. I am responsible for and affect me. I barely feed the economic earth eating machine.

Yes, there are minor victories here and there. Yes, torture and murder is bad. As long as you own a vehicle and consume imported goods, you are part of a resource war that can not stop.

As sure as humans survive on oxydizing the fuel of killed plants and animals, people are going to fight over resources, using whatever tools they have. Through non-violent social pressures, violent force, or economic might.

The real solution to this dilema, obviously, is to have less struggle over resources, which means using less resources, which means don't breed and live a life with a minimum land resource footprint.

People are driving cars to go over hang up resource hogging flags to protest.

In the meantime Iraquis are getting blown up over oil, and the US is torturing turban heads.

Stop using resources, the conflict stops. Don't stop using resources, the conflict doesn't stop.

"During the Cold War years, the Soviet Bloc contained many peoples and nations that were de-facto "members" - like it or not`-.

That empire is gone now. Many former "members" are now free republics."

This bring up quite a lot to discuss. 1) Are there similar internal tensions now in China that there were in the former Soviet Bloc, 2) are the former USSR members in reality more free now, and 3) has the uncontrolled decentralization overall given more, or less freedom. Freedom must of course include freedom from fear of the Mafia and freedom to eat.

It is a tragic act of nature that humans congregate into tribes, and wage warfare against other tribes over resources. I can't think of any territory on the planet earth that has not changed hands many times.

You say you want a revolution? Well, you know. You aint never going to revolute human nature away. They system, the underlying system is biological and must include tribalism and nationalism and insatiable greed.

Show me your plan that incorporates that, and explain to me how you get from this a to that d. If the middle includes a lot of question marks, then why do you suspect an outcome different from any other outcome from any other revolution? Why do you expect better than just another changing of the guard?

@99 High Hopes Pickle, I agree that optimists are happier, and that a positive vision for the future can be a force of good.

All I'm saying is, if you want to steer the car, know where the steering wheel is.

@98 - I'm no China expert, but from what I've read they are starting to notice and act on environmental concerns.

And as for what the Chinese government says, is it really important? I don't care if my girlfriend says she is not doing drugs and not cheating on me. I care if she is doing drugs and cheating on me. It may be expedient for her to say appeasing things, but calling her out on it won't necessarily change anything fundamental.

#97, I see your point about socially constructed reality, however I see a major flaw of the last several decades being an over-emphasis on the weight of this. As an example I give you how feminism tendds to want to overlook biological gender differences, and how it tends to have a difficult time with BDSM.

Even social structures have constraints. You can't get there from here if here is not actually here - you can't start at Utopia and then get to Utopia. No matter what you want to accomplish, you have to start with what is.

Asians don't have the same sense of individuality that westerners do. It is very naive to expect a strong sense of individual rights to catch on based on western support. There might be levers of power than can be pulled and pushed - pulling and pushing inefectual ones is a problem in that we aren't using our energy to search out levers that might actually do something.

#93 "a great part of the solution would be not feeding the economical model and that is the hardest part."

Indeed. If you can't stop the bulldozer, move the house. Not everyone is able or willing to live outside the current economic model. I've chosen to live as an expat in an agrarian community with no vehicle and no refrigerator. It's not off the grid living and I'm not farming, but it's low impact and low resource living. I'm not a breeder. Self employed. To re-define the rules sometimes means just playing a different game altogether.

But if illusions of grandeur appeal to you, enjoy that then.

@87 said "Also, I get the feeling you have a deep resentment towards "raising awareness", which you see as feel-good activism, done by naive hippies or whatever."

I don't resent feel-good activism quite so much as I see it a common flaw in thinking that the young are prone to. Youthful idealism seems to be about discovering the best Utopia, and striving towards that. It's impractical. Youthful idealism thinks being impractical is somehow thinking outside of the box that can gain traction through perseverence. People get confused between ideas and experiment, between religion and science.

I suggest that we need to respect the real life mechanics of the world as much as does the scientist. Most of it is unknown, but what we do know teaches us rules - rules that are not arbitrary or subject to our ideologies. The most compelling Utopia does not win.

It is a thinking style that I protest against, and only because I see it as a contagion of ineffectiveness.

#87, I understand those ideas. They still strike me as naive. I seriously doubt it is possible for any serious boycott of Chinese goods. I'm not saying that it is unlikely, I'm saying that it is not possible.

If you can't stop the bulldozer, move the house. Seek solutions that work, rather than solutions that don't.

I'm suggesting not to watch the magicians eyes and listen to the patter, but to watch the hands. I'm suggesting that we are fooled by political mis-direction if we start to think that anyone cares what our opinions are. Politics is about power, not opinion. If one has political aims, one must figure out how to affect power. Opinion is most often futile.

@84, What has given you reason to believe that the authorities in China have any concern whatsoever with face? Does face affect their trade?

Follow the money, follow the power. Face is a distraction, a way to make you think you are a part of the process. That kind of thinking directly disenfranchises you, because of the false sense of power it givdes.

Power comes from money and inflence - noting more.

@80 "and some of those will be in a position to make decisions about dealing with China, and they will decide not to, and without support from the outside world the whole lousy thing will collapse and fall..."

This seems naive. This is the real world, not a popularity contest. The world simply can not function without Chinese factories - and business is about functioning. Corporations have no souls.

I'm not privy to what motivates Chinese politicians, so I'm probably just sharing my brain farts, but here are some very vague notions I have.
1) People with ideologies to protect, such as *ism or *ity, tend to be resistant to change.
2) Chinese leadership does not have a history of being responsive to opinion.
3) In general self-perpetuating-power structures are responsive to changes that affect them. I can't see how opinion affects the power structure that is the organization of China.

I wish I had some insight into what actually would motivate Chinese leadership to radically alter their entire world view and raison-detre and notions of personal and community power, such that they would accomodate more autonomy in Tibet, or elsewhere. I'd suggest that perhaps, just perhaps, we are approaching the whole issue with the wrong question, and therefore getting no answer. I think we need to approach it more along the lines of, how can giving Tibetans more freedoms make powerful Chinese bureacrats more money.

Takuan, I'd also like to hope that China will temper their reactions to protests because of outside pressures. I can't see outside pressures or internal pressures leading to autonomy.

@77, I'm not advocating inaction, nor ignorance. I'm suggesting that raising awareness alone is not action. I'm suggesting that to be pragmatic requires more than that, and it is a trap to think that Free Tibet bumber stickers will do anything. It is more pragmatic to be more pragmatic. What, exactly, would move the followers and givers of orders in China to behave differently regarding Tibetan independance? People's reactions to the Olympics? Perhaps, but I'd argue that some other leverage would be needed to make a fundamental difference.

@77 and Takuan seem to be hearing me say that nothing can be done and lets forget about it and move on. I'm saying something more along the lines of, if something can be done then do it, and if not then don't. Awareness is not action.

Of course pragmatic action requires awareness of the situation. I'm not advocating ignorance. I'm just saying that awareness, even omniscient awareness by 100% of the people, is not enough, and it is counter productive to act as if "raising awareness" were a politically useful act.

What would be productive is knowing how the system works and manipulating that system, if possible. I suggest that the system can't be manipulated, as far as autonomy is concerned, by any amount of rhetoric or action regarding the Olympics. I'm open to arguments to the contrary that demonstrate political savy.

Pragmatically speaking, how to lessen the rape and torture? "Raising awareness" is futile, and only makes us suffer empathically.

It isn't being defeatist to be realist. Live to enjoy. We don't need grandiose illusions to do that.

@53 "What strikes me as disingenuous or at least naive is the notion that disrupting the Olympics will have a detrimental effect on a government that DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK. "

This post captured my sentiment. People like to feel empowered, but we are not - it is an egostitical illusion to assume that any amount of public awareness will affect in a broad way Chinese policy in Tibet. They have too much at stake. Allowing any political protests to lead to any amount of autonomy could not possibly be tolerated.

The idea of democracy and "fairness" is a little bit la-la foo-foo fairy-land happy time. Guns and money. Awareness doesn't stop guns and money.

Antinous @7 who said "The qualities necessary to win are (in theory) the same qualities that lead to spiritual transcendence. Some athletes, and I would guess a lot of the winners, do achieve that. But a lot of others take performance enhancing drugs, cheat and spend all their time partying."

I imagine Bacchus would have take the drugs and partied. A pagan might follow his lead.

Hey - I think you're switching on a lightbulb. Interesting communication style, by the way. Say just enough, but not all, so that when I make the connection it will seem like my idea.

Seems you are saying that this is near military equipment that could be used domestically in a civil war or other civil disturbance. Seems one reason to control the technology is that it has military value.

If so, that motivation would go alongside with one to register digital imaging devices. It is of civil disobedience control interest to track down photographers of the wrong sorts of pictures.

Hey - I think you're switching on a lightbulb. Interesting communication style, by the way. Say just enough, but not all, so that when I make the connection it will seem like my idea.

Seems you are saying that this is near military equipment that could be used domestically in a civil war or other civil disturbance. Seems one reason to control the technology is that it has military value.

If so, that motivation would go alongside with one to register digital imaging devices. It is of civil disobedience control interest to track down photographers of the wrong sorts of pictures.

Lizardman @18 who said "I recently had an experience with security theater meant to make me feel safe that made me feel less safe "

You've got it backwards. The theatrics are designed to make you feel less safe.

" he must be damn sure of himself, and willing to face the consequences of breaking that law"

There comes a point when the leader is the law, and must maintain leadership in order not to be judged. It seems that some politicians embrace becoming the law, and are certain of their willingness to face any consequences.

It isn't a matter of judging dictators after the fact and saying I told you so with a waggly finger over their corpse. It's a matter of who will be the grunts who sacrifice for the possibility of a dictatorless future.

Ah - I think I have a glimmer of the beginnings of a viable powerful social movement. It has something to do with women being promiscuous. Women can help to win over the hearts and minds of the calicified incalcitrant, win them, and make them instransigent into politico-transients. Be very promiscuous, as if the future of the country depended on it.

To restate my view, I think it is mostly the artisan and business classes that are capable of some measure of introspection and self interested free will. If humans were homogenously capable, we would resist fascism with a spritely step.

It is for this reason that I agree that when the Diebold count is found to be false, the warrior class will largely go along with whatever they learned when they were 5, and Believe, and Believe hard and tight and fight it right.

This may sound bigoted and racist and classist to educated ears, but these opinions are born not from ignorance but reading recent psychological and gentic research, as well as having lived more than two or three decades.

It is the grunts among us, the necessary police grunts and military grunts, the necessary religious zealouts, the followers of orders, the willing to die soldier ants and munitions factory bees, that must be won over from the Dark side if the Diebold count is to be successfully contested.

Remember the 60s? The grunts were won by Rock and Roll idols. They followed hippie heroes.

We need hippie heros, or the updated version.

Mintphresh @118 who said "they also believe fox news is telling them the truth. it completely blows my mind, as these are otherwise intelligent human beings. again, "

You may be interested to read the writings of social scientist Bob Altemeyer about authoritarian personalities. A significant percentage of people refuse to think, to the degree that they basically simply can not think. The cognitive dissonance is too great a strain.

Our liberal upbringing makes this very difficult for us to accept. We don't want to swallow the fact that other people are not like us, will not be like us, and can not be like us.

At a fundamental and deeply disturbing level, human beings are divided into classes.

Akasha @98 who said "I am of the mindset that the lack of information and education of the majority is what needs to be solved-

But if the majority of the public would vote and make decisions without ignorance, would that make a difference?"

You are an optimist of the sort who doesn't like to pay much heed to either the bell curve or recent finds in genetics and neurobiology. Humans have both classes and castes - biologically, as well as through education and environment. The worker bees, the grunts, are needed by any society to die in huge numbers against the invading grunts. It's been that way since we've been social chipmunks.

The greater bulk of any human society will be grunts, and incapable of an educated vote.

Only transhumans could be different.

Demidan @ 21 whos said "...So when the end of his term is neigh and he formally declares martial law and suspends the election, we can rise up and slay his illegal government!"

If the head puppet doesn't "allow" some small town into being irradiated or sprayed with bio-weapons from people within the US first, forcing his hand at declaring martial law, my bet is on the elections being rigged through Diebold. It won't make a difference how obvious this is.

What are you going to do about it? As people have been saying, what can you do?

I'm glad that I still won't be in that country come November. When the roundups of the anti-government protestors occurs.

Sorry - that should read; Big business is playing a part in the growing fascism.

Well, back on track - this EULA smells to me very much like Aircraft Securith Theater. A distraction, meant to aclimatize people to a climate of Big Brother.

And I back this up by the actions of the major inkjet printer companies, telcom companies, oil companies, etc, etc. Big government is playing a part in the growing fascism. If that seems like an insanely strange proposition - it is. And the insanely strange evidence is discussed daily on Boingboing.

Equivocate?

It's so cute when you try to use grownup words!

"This camera requires "light" to take pictures, but it may not be visible "light."

Ok, so it acts like a fancy filter. It sees "through" clothes exactly to the extent that the clothes are transparent to visible light.

Bathing suits are close to opaque to near IR then, are most fabrics. Only very sheer womens dresses would be an issue, and then only in the best lighting conditions.

Oh, and Mr. H - I'm not surprised that you picked up on the fact me pointing out that you pointing out my character flaws makes you stupid is an ad hominem.

I am surprised that you thought it enlightening to explain to me the inconsistency that was involved in creating my witticism. Kinda makes you seem a little slowish.

Hounskull @123 - IR, as you might know, will "see through" to the same extent as visible light. The main difference that the body glows with heat, and this shine out through shear fabrics. So you might be able to pick up the body glow. But the body glow is nothing like reflected light - it is more amorphous (less morphous?).

As the camera has been out for a year, there ought to be some pics out there of us to use in our discussion. If not, well, maybe IR is not quite so riske a technology. And I wanted my see through specs! Guess I'll have to wait for the T-Ray camera to come out.

So, Mr. H, we are waiting for two things from you, for a credible argument. 1) examples of companies with big budget lawyers having lost lawsuits in related cases, and 2) examples that this technology is substantially more intrusive than similar technology that is freely sold.

I get it, if you have a very shear outer garment that is highly reflective, infrared will filter out the glare of it, inas much, and only inasmuch, as the fabric is also transparent.

And Sony face some noise about IR. But no big company seems to be at any actual legal risk. Risk of noise, maybe.

So is someone saying that these cameras make people out in public seriously erotically exposed, unless they are dressing for the IR camera? Any examples to share about this? I highly doubt it I'd wager anything sheer enough to be transparent to IR is going to be sheer enough to be vulnerable to the right visible light conditions.

And patterns of nipple heat on someones swimsuit? Fuji's lawyers can't fight off a lawsuit from Swimsuit Sue, while the Paparazzi can fight off lawsuits by British Royalty?

I'm not swallowing that load.

Takuan @118 - That's a frightening tale of Massively Multiplayer Parental Overly-concerned Rightous Grotesquery. Can you tie it into the EULA thread?

Skep, I'm pretty sure that the porn website doesn't use an IR camera at all. Those are just regular light pictures of models in sheer clothing.

As for near and far IR, I'm not quite getting your point, as regards to seeing though clothes. Neither can, correct? You see infrared of the clothing itself, the heat of the clothing - you don't see through clothing.

As for enforcement being the reason spy devices are openly sold, that may be - I'm not clear on the law. My question was more along the lines of what examples of successful lawsuits have their been. I'm trying to establish if there is a credible legal threat. Without any prior successful lawsuits, I am inclined to believe there are other motivations at work.

It's all about money and power. The EULA doesn't seem designed to make more money - I'm pretty sure it would hamper sales. Does it credibly protect the money that it loses? If not...

Infrared doesn't pass through clothes any better than does visible light. You can't "see through" clothes with it.

The link to the joke porn site has nothing to do with IR.

Infrared will show heat gradations. So if you are wearing a tight fitting shear garment, like a swimsuit, you could pick up on temperature differences on the outside of the fabric. You aren't going to pick up on temperature diffences underneath the fabric.

I would like to be educated as to the successful litigation for selling devices that could be used to compromise privacy. I'm aware that spy devices are sold openly, when they are not restricted to police and government use.

And need I remind that regardless of if the cameras currently have digital signatures, future ones could. The weak and dangerous thing to have is a database of owners and future owners. If the seriousness of that possibility misses you, it probably always will.

I've been known to call someone an idiot, if they outright refuse the Greater Logic of His Saucy Goodness. But barring pointing out an inability to be use reason, personal attacks make you look stupid. And they make you smell.

It isn't hysteria to point out that digital cameras are prone to watermarkings, and that big corporations already have a track record of using such markings.

Cameras that may leave identifyable watermarkings should not be registered, if you want democracy.

I'm sure you are already educated at how government officials infiltrate and try to subvert political gatherings that are deemed anti status quo. There is a huge history of that, and of course not only in the U.S. In some countries the governments are much less covert.

You say I'm making a hysterical big deal, as if this is something to do with my emotion and judgment being askew.

Sometimes when my girlfriend is asleep, I'll nudge her. If it's a fire, and she is just too sleepy, maybe I'll yell. Not everything is just a small deal.

Goofy analogy?

Hows about I take a photo of a political protest demonstration being roughly put down by cops and undercover army personel, and upload it to a popular blog.

Hows about there is some identifying marker in the photo.

Hows about I get a little re-educational visit the next day?

Registering cameras is not a big deal?! Wtf!

Sony was sued. Did they lose the lawsuit? What is the precedent now?

The pressure on Fuji did not come from internal lawyers protecting from civil lawsuits. Because there simply not enough legal threat to justify the decrease in sales that the EULA will cause. There is no legal threat at all.

You have to consider the context of this new type of EULA. Microsoft installed backdoors into Windows for the feds. Printers leave hidden traceable identifying marks on documents. The phone companies comply with warrantless wiretapping. The government knows the location of all cell phones at all times. The banks make it difficult to use money anonymously. At every turn, anonymity is more difficult - this is obviously very much a part of that context. Even the airport security theater is part of the context of this issue. This is no lawyers liability issue. Because there is no liability threat.

The pressures that led Fuji to make this decision were not internal.

Printer companies now embed images into all printed pages. The government wants documents traceable back to the owner. I can't see any liability issue here, therefore...

Since when can a camera seller be liable for the pictures that the cameras take? What does IR or UV have to do with it? A telephoto lens and an open window will expose a lot more.

And IR is nothing like x-ray, and it doesn't see beneath clothes. You get a heat signature. Any IR picture I've seen hardly "seeing through clothes". Globy and low def.

I think those that suspect Fuji is trying to cover it's ass are missing the bigger picture. Big Corporations are in bed with Big Government, and Big Government likes to be able to track pictures back to the individual. The cameras are likely to embed codes into individual pictures.

Plus, it is social conditioning. A trend, another little baby step, another increment of heat in the pot for us toads. The impetus for this can't be about liability.

Don't blame Fuji for overprotecting their but - blame whoever Fuji is sucking off in the corporate-government orgy.

To #18 eigengrau: Did you notice that the intolerant have guns?

In my early twenties I spent some months in a Pastafarian monastery. The Abbot was authentically foreign, but the Abbess was thankfully local.

After many months of mind training, I broke off from monastic obligations to live in an abandoned hunters cabin, an hours hike through knee deep snow. Every week or two I'd hike out for provisions, until after 11 weeks I became a bit lonely.

I kept that lifestyle up for a while, until I knocked some random girl up. A rather wrongly random girl.

Eventually, my notions about his Noodliness changed. They are still changing.

His Sweet Engorged Love Tendrils aside, forests and solitude, long, long solitude, are neato. Mood can be elvated long term through sensory deprivation and introspection. Better than money.

To #32 Cowicide: I'm not sure "democracy" is either real or the answer. All governments are corrupt. A government where corruption is available at low cost to the common folk is the government for me.

Democrocy is as real as Cinderella's marriage.

eevee@27: A bitter twist the meaningfullness of moral turpitude, is that genetics play a part in our ability to recognize it. It seems that some portion of the population, usually defined as liberal, have 3 morals, and another has 5. The extra two that conservatives have are Purity and Authority.

Isn't that amazing? Humans have genetic classes - we have a Police/Warrior/Religious-idiot class.

Our lord FSM represents multiculturalism? I thought He represented the end of P.C., and open war on stupidity.

To #16 zuzu: corrupt or depraved or degenerate as synonyms for turpitude seem equally meaningless to me. What I hear is that blzzpr means wwcps, or zlckkw, or a00c8w.

I'm starting to get confused here. We are expecting the Dems to win the next election, right? Or are we expecting a major terrorist strike and marshal law? How is this ramping up of the police state supposed to survive a change of regime to the Dems? What am I missing?

To #47 Teresa Nielsen Hayden: You are paying attention. Yes, an uprising has been predicted by the US government, and from what I hear they are preparing for it, and have started construction on many huge new prisons.

This is why I think the US will become the next China. The U.S. is capable of using its military against it's own people, and it has the resources and ability to quell any form of dissent.

Unless somehow the democrats dismantle what has been building up. But why do I get the feeling that the Dems and Repugnicans are not entirely two separate political parties? That is to say, why do I get the feeling that both Dems and Repugnicans are not entirely beholden to the will of the people, and both serve the same base of support?

To #28 nikkesen: You really aren't paying attention. The "war on terror" is a ruse to get you to willingly comply with expanding government powers.

To #9 WarLord: I love your humor. Is it just me, or is this type of humor the new zeitgeist? Making fun of desperately painful realities. I can't imagine jokes like that in the 70s. P.C. must be dead! Hurray!

To Jeff #13: I think you misunderstand what politics is, and who does politics. Politics is power. A successful politian must be skillful at manipulating power. Politics isn't about making laws for the common good, it is about trading favors with others who will either gain an upper hand over you, or further your career. The public good business is just to get votes. The public good business is PR, marketting. It has very little to do with what politicians do.

If you want to reform government, you'd have to find a way to reform human nature. I can't think of one. Career politicians become powerful by the same means as alpha primates have for millenia - politics of power.

If I were to suggest a rational form of governance, it would not be democracy of one vote per adult. It would be a meritocracy of influence based on ability to understand the issues and make decisions that reflect an aspiration towards the common good. We need to qualify to vote, and give more vote to the more qualified. Will that happen? Not in my lifetime.

To Kyle post #6: I agree that a strong government negatively effects individual rights. This is why I'm much more comfortable living as an expat in Indonesia, which has one of the worlds most corrupt society. I feel much safer and freer here. A little greese to the right wheel can get things done, and I'm not at the whim of some huge machine.

A horribly corrupt government has all sorts of problems, but at least it is incapable of being taken very seriously.

This guy is going to get more teenage lust aimed at him than he can shake his stick at.

Maybe outlawing cigarrettes would make them less attractive to the easiliy influenced also?

Comment #28 was by Sproing, in response to Hounskull.

But ya, remember the BoingBoing article about GrandPappy Bush's facist plans. This is no accident, and the methods here are not newly invented. Same old, same old. How long do fascist states usually last, by the way? The U.S.S.R. was stable for a few generations, and China seems to be holding up pretty well.

I don't foresee any revolution in the U.S. It will decay into another China.

Hounskull:

You say - Truly amazing...These lists are fundamentally Unconstitutional... such programs are actually counter productive to genuine law enforcement,...It's mind boggling we can give so much power.

I think you mis-underestimate the foxyness of these antics.

As an analogy, why do you think that cable TV interrupts its programing to show non-commercials? It is to habituate us to accept these breaks as normal, so that we won't complain when they start broadcasting real commercials, as they already do in some countries.

Why all the bullshit police state theater? Obviously it is not about security. It is about conditioning people to accept a police state. You have to do these things incrementally.

Crazy, yes. Crazy like a fox.