There does seem to be a plethora of interesting, or interesting looking books in the YA section. While I'm in school, I don't really have time to read what I like (as all my reading time is devoted to history), so I've been reading to my kiddo stuff that I want to read too. We're in the middle of Harry Potter series right now (on book 5). I think once we finish that, we might read Cory's new book (which I'll pick up this week). I've decided to put off Clive Barker's YA series until she's a bit older (though I've read the first 2 books and they are amazingly good). And I can't wait for the Graveyard book to come out.

Incidentally, several people here have said that HP has been driving book reading amongst the younger crowd, which has been my understanding. But I saw Susan Jacoby on C-Span this weekend (she was on Colbert last week, so you might have seen that) and she claims that Harry Potter is not driving sales of other YA books, and in fact is a further dumbing down of culture. Anyone care to comment on that... Here is the link to the videos on the youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyMevit8pbc

I only saw the end of the interview, and I think her comments are in video 5.

Mindy

This along with Leonard Cohen touring is some of the best news I've heard in ages in regards to live music shows.

Mindy

#23- I didn't bring her for that reason, but it may require a sitter next time. And my kid seems to have a strong sense of language and appropriateness. She sometimes scolds me for cursing. I've noticed that she doesn't just parrot what she hears around her, she is good about taking things in and evaluating them before spouting them back. We did take her to TMBGs and that was a good time.

And yeah, the Pogues parallel I think is apt. It's the way I described them to a friend.

"God damn, Next rounds on me... nobody learns no nothing from no history"

Mindy

I adore these guys! I really dig Eugene's lyrics... My daughters a big fan, too. Thought from what everyone describes, it's probably best to wait awhile to take her to a show (she's 5). I like Super Taranta, but Underdog World Strike is great too.

Mindy

That was good stuff last night. I so want to read his book... I guess I'll get around to it sometime.

Anyone seen any of those stickers on doritos bags? Or anything else for that matter?

Mindy

I'm sure someone will buy/download the thing, cause they think it's all cool to be into mass murderers... or mass murder conspirators, as the case maybe.

And this does not in any way negate creative commons awesomeness.

#9- Agreed about Hitler. He didn't kill anyone, but he is certainly responsible, or at least one of the most responsible parties.

#15- I think you actually invoked Godwin's law there... But I think you meant to....

#16- I think you could be right, but then there he is in Natural Born Killers... so I suppose it's possible. I kinda doubt it, though.

#19- roflmao!!! I think it is the *nods sagely* part that got me...

Mindy

#135- Bat, I guess this gets back to the "inside" vs "outside" debate that has long gone on in outsider political/cultural communities, right? Whether you can be part of the system and change the system from within, or if you have to be outside the system to not get subsumed by it. If you look at the history of revolutions, of uprisings, or political or cultural discontent (or whatever you want to call it), that is I think one of the most common themes (the film Paradise now is a good example of an explicit expression of this debate within the Palestinian community).

As for Nader- he's not that radical, really. He gets marginalized because he makes a valid point in his campaigns about corporate power and the corruption of both parties. The Dems were all on board when he was on the sidelines, going after the right, but once he started making noise about their own party.... He's a threat because he makes people understand a different point of view that challenges the status quo. That should tell us something, I think. If someone gets marginalized, not on their views (there racist, sexist, reactionary, whatever), but because of something like "he's a spoiler" or "the war is his fault because he took votes away from Al Gore", well, that should tell us something about the message that the person has. Honestly, I'm still not sure what side of that debate (in the system vs out of the system) I'm on. I see utility in both. Maybe we can do both at the same time? Sure, we need good people pushing thoughts that are considered a bit outside the mainstream, that challenge hegemonic "common sense", as it were. But, having people of good conscious on the inside is needed too.

I think I want a new way to put all this together, really.

Mindy

#11- I agree we will never be 100% secure. We have to accept that, but maybe we could try dealing with some of the underlying causes of terrorism instead of having policies that inflame it? I think that Israel has the same problem. Ignoring the underlying cause.

Mindy

#134- Meh... perhaps you're right on that count, on being self-indulgent, I mean. It still sucks, though. And besides, it isn't just about me, but about the future as well. Who's to say that the good changes will come. After all, this John Yoo unitary executive nonsense is not just Bush administration, but there has been a concerted effort since Carter to build back up the power of the executive. This administration just had a better opportunity than the rest of them. Good quotes. Thanks!

And #133- It's not just the Bushies, I think. It's again, the system.

Mindy

Schneier always has something very thoughtful and interesting to say. I think he gets it right on this count, especially the point about the two ways to handle the trade offs- make everyone more secure and hope they notice, or just do crap that does not make us more secure and hope that they don't. I think #8 is right- it is philosophical in nature.

#2- I don't really think it's "thinly veiled", and I think what he's saying can't really be said enough on some level. They have dropped the ball on security. They are engaged in all these exercises intended to make us feel safer, but are actually engaged in activities that might in the long run make us less safe- Iraq, threatening Iran, etc.

#5- Harlan Ellison is a wise man! what a great quote.

Mindy

Maybe it's today's anniversary, maybe it's the weather, maybe it's the lack of practical ideas from this thread on the topic (with the possible exception of Takuan, who is almost always on the ball)... but I'm feeling despondent over this a bit. I want to be hopefully, as Nick D. suggested I am, because hope means that you feel that action can change things. So, what can be done. No one seems to be answering that question, not really. They hint, perhaps, especially those from other places than the states, but, no one is saying I think the solution is this... shouldn't that tell us something, namely that easy answers just aren't at hand?

#126- I agree, it has little to do with Bush and his administration and more to do with the system.

#123- Why would McCain, over Obama or Clinton, mean blood in the streets? I'm just curious to understand what you mean.

Mindy

Nick- I'm not disagreeing with that, but compromise can go both ways. It can be a way of undercutting discontent, and breaking apart movements. You zero in on specifics, give a little, and what do you know- some of us bow out because we got our little piece of the pie... compromise can be good, as it can force change, but, it can be bad, because it stops people looking at the root of the problem...

I'm not sure about the tipping point. Sometimes, I think we have, sometimes, I don't think we have. It's hard to tell, and that is up to historians to sort out later, I suppose.

As for your personal actions in #90- that's great. I wish more people would take principled stances, but most people don't. Most people compromise on those basic ideas, because it's common sense that we do those things (you employer has the right to tell you whatever they want, and most people are afraid of getting fired, so they don't bother to say no, even if they know they are right). You should be proud. And encourage others, too.

Don't believe them for a moment
For a second, do not believe, my friend
When you are down, them are not coming
With a helping hand
Of course there is no us and them
But them they do not think the same
It's them who do not think
They never step on spiritual path
They paint their faces so differently from ours
And if you listen closely
That war it never stops
Be them new Romans
Don't envy them my friend
Be their lives longer
Their longer lives are spent
Without a love or faithful friend
All those things they have to rent
But we who see our destiny
In sound of this same old punk song
Let rest originality for sake of passing it around
Illuminating realization number one:
You are the only light there is
For yourself my friend
There'll be no saviors any soon coming down
And anyway illuminations
Never come from the crowned
Illuminating realization number one:
You are the only light there is
For yourself my friend

Mindy

Takuan- I'm not sure who you're asking, but I think no. Not in any real way. Anyone else?

Mindy

Nick- I'll grant you that now is better than then. Doesn't that go without saying... But, one could argue that Jim Crow was better than slavery, and did, in fact. Overall, I just think it was a case of co-option and compromise. But that doesn't mean that it's as good as it could be. We have a tendency to fix the effects, not the causes. I'm just wondering if there can ever be anything but compromise under the system as it is, when it has such a pervasive reach into our everyday lives, now more than ever. We have one of the most effective tools for organizing than ever before, true... but they have to most effective surveillance tools ever devised as well. We are at a tipping point, according to Moglen, or we were recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NorfgQlEJv8

The question is whether we've gone past that point and it's too late.

As for idealism, I do have some. I do believe that people can do great and wonderful things, but we can do some shit things too. Human nature channeled through group think can be downright scary.

Mindy

# 75, Tom said "So from our point of view, the American political process is almost incomprehensibly broken. We feel like we're standing on the outside and if we were just there we could do something. But we forget that unlike Canada, the United States has a completely moribund political culture.

And that is the fundamental enabler for Bush and company. They have no real opposition. It is the political class vs the people, and neither party is on your side."

I think you hit the nail on the head on that count.

#70- Agreed.

#71- Again, agreed. It's quite powerful, but the state of the unions is pretty sorry right now, and of course, Unions can often have their own problems. So, again, we get back to the system, or in the case of unions, another system...

Mindy

Nick-

Thanks, I guess... I don't know how idealistic it is to see the system as the problem. That means that no matter what, we're up that brown creek of poo completely paddle-less, and short of life vest. It waffles between humans being responsible and the system being responsible... the system has become invisible and human action is almost an after thought when we assign blame...

The two party duopoloy, as Nader likes to call it, doesn't let viable third parties into the game, hence we will never know if a 3rd party can be viable. Let's take Nader... he made serious inroads in 00, and look what happened to him- the democrats decided that those votes "belonged" to them, and that mean old Ralph stole them. What has a tendency to happen is that the major parties will often co-opt 3rd party positions to bring some of those folks into the fold, at least in the past. Now they don't have to budge an inch, because CNN and Fox will tell everyone that the 3rd party candidates are just crazy go nuts, and either "liberal" (ie communist) or "conservative (ie fascist). They don't need to give, and this is what has happened to the democrats, most especially (for some reason liberalism is worse than conservatism).

Sure, in theory, black Americans are now equal. In theory. Reality is another ball game. There is still economic and social inequalities, but of course, people start yelling "affirmative action is bad for white men" and "reverse racism" and everyone backs off, because that's "liberalism" or communism, and that's bad. And we still have far more black men in jail than white. And we have subprime lenders going into communities that "regular" banks won't touch, and then the rug gets yanked out...

Sure, I'll vote. I'll pick a side. Sure, I'll be part of the system, but how am I supposed to hang onto my idealism, my love of humanity, when I'm part of the system, that keeps people doing these awful things to one another (Kosova, Bosnia, Rwanda, The Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, the Cultural revolution, the world wars, the holocaust, the Armenian genocide, the native Americans, slavery, imperialism, colonialism- and these are just the big ones off the top of my head). I guess my question is- what do we do about modernity? I suppose I could drop out, but then nothing gets changed, and no one is around to say anything... so here I am. I can point and tell everyone what I think the problem is, and I can have a forum, thanks to the internet, but god damn if things will change because I rant, either in the tubes, or in my academic work, or whatever.

See my problem, Nick?

Mindy

Craig, you're telling us to do something, but what should we do, in your opinion? What is to be done? A revolt (end result, violent oppression, things worse than before)? A protest movement (cooption that leads to only incremental change)? I think that there is a whole other level to this that I see no way out of, if that makes any sense. You work within the system, your screwed, you work outside the system, you get nohwere, marginalized and ignored.

See why we're frustrated? It's not that many of us don't think your right, and lots of us are doing stuff... but...

I'm just at a loss, frankly. I think I'm not the only one.

Mindy

I'm more depressed by the day. I would say that I can't wait for Jan 20 2009, but that will change little to nothing. We aren't getting out of Iraq. We will probably go into Iran, or stay if we are already there (well... we probably are). We will continue to ignore international law. We will continue to treat our citizens like criminals... etc, etc. And I don't think it matters if we take to the street to protest and vote in the dems in November... Obama or Hilary, either, it doesn't matter because nothing real will change. Obama's deal is working within the system, but what about the system itself? I'm really at a lost for what to do... we can get incremental change of sort, but that is about all we're gonna get.

Craig- yes, we can get out on the street and raise a ruckus, but frankly, all we'll get are democrats who are just as bad as the repubs. And what would an out and out revolt change, really? Not much... It would still end up the same old system or possibly some sort of cult of personality regimes that far too many revolutions end up as. What happens to the idealistic revolutinaries when the revolution is over? They have to run a country, that's what. They get stuck in the same conundrums that those who run nation-states get into now. No one EVER questions the system, and tries to fix that in any meaningful way.

I'm really at a loss to know what to do about this or anything else... It makes me understand why so many in the 60s just sort of gave up...

Mindy

#96- Ah, come on, don't be annoyed! It was a joke... ha, ha? And at my own expense, too. And sort of mocking the whole "Americans are dumb crowd" (I have a prof who is one- always bitching about no one having any language skills outside there native one here). I mean, years of German, and I know hardly any (spreche sie deutch... sehr kleine deutch). So, I'm pretty dumb, at least when it comes to languages. I can mock my own country, can't I? Jello quotes are always outstanding, and that is right on the money! I agree- outside appearances meaning nothing, right? Did I make that point somewhere in this mega long thread? If not, I should have. Yay Jello, for whom there is always room. Skrewdriver? Really? Just curious. And what's wrong with Gogol Bordello? They are pretty much a good time, if you ask me, while having a good poltical slant as well. And I'm not sure if kids are really more scenesterish, or if it just seems like it from our post-30 vantage point. Could be both. One does not preclude the other.

#101- Glad I'm not the only one. "Back in my day... we made do with manic panic that we got once a year when going to the big city, walking both ways up hills... and we liked it, we loved it... we had to order our London After Midnight cassette tapes from them mail order catalogs! And make mixed tapes. And shop at thrift stores. None of this intertubes nonsense... These kids today, got it too easy!!!" Yeah, I see lots of this being 80's nostalgia too. I was just wondering the other day why all the freshman (well, not all, but some) at my university looked as if they just stepped out of a John Hughes film. Isn't there a Mike Watt song about that kind of nostalgia- but about the 70s? didn't Eddie Vedder sing in it? I really never dug the newer "goth" music that some places started playing back when we still went out. It's like it's... not spontaneous or something? People are trying to sound like somebody else instead of... I don't want to say doing their own thing... I don't know. I'm bad at well defined scenes, being part of them. I was never able to get it right, and I never just wanted to hang out with one sort of people, who ever they were. I think this has to do with the scene I hung out in when I was a teenager- it was full of just odd balls with all sorts of taste in music/culture/politics/religion/sexual orientation/etc. I like variety, and talking to people who are different from me. Trad goth clubs were always fun, though. Those were the days!!!

Anyway- one day I'll write a book that has a grand unified theory of all this stuff, and I'll call it "My supertheory of supereverything" and everyone will hate it and Eugene Hutz will either sue me or think it's great. Give me another 20 years or so, when it's all irrelevant anyway... ;-P

Mindy

So this is why we invaded... oh wait, like half Americans think this too... sorry.

RJ are you making a joke, or are you being serious? what a ridiculous thing to say! Shame on him indeed, Teapunk!

Mindy

@#91- DCulberson, you just tripled your Mindycred for getting that! What an amazing band! I'm all about me some Gogol Bordello lately. I'm always quoting songs. I already have a song (well, song related- it's a Woody Guthrie quote on Mermaid Avenue) for my thesis! And my senior paper was named after a KMFDM song. And a paper I wrote about the holocaust was named after a joy division song. I can't help myself.

As for corporate music that so much music becomes:

"I'm gathering new generation
That's gonna stand up to it
To this karaoke dictatorship
Where posers and models with guitars
Boogie to the shit for beats
I make a better rock revolution
Alone with my dick!"

Mindy

I think this along with the "anti-Emo pogrom" story today both sort of funny titles, but the realities are pretty upsetting.

Mindy

I laughed too... but that is also very disturbing. I know that kids will be kids, but have these kids been watching girls gone wild, or something? WTF?

Mindy

#82- I'm curious actually- in your opinion, what is a true form of a scene anyway? Any scene, not just emo? When does it cross that line from being an authentic artistic expression to being just another youth culture sold at hot topic or target that all the scenesters are into? Can we define a scene as more than just a local community? Does it become an "Imagined community" that crosses national boundaries? Or does it need to be a fact to face particpatory experience to be a real scene? I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you think we should define these things in the first place. What about punk? When did that end- when it got big in England- what about the LA and DC scenes, or Boston, or Belgrade, or Paris? Are they not punk because they came after the Sex Pistols and the Clash? What about Gogol Bordello? Are they not punk? Isn't much of this about self-definition more than anything else? It also seems to me that much of this is defined looking backwards, after the fact- "Oh, THAT was goth, or THAT was punk..." I'm just curious how others define this stuff. I have my own theories, really.

BTW- I'm amazed at how long and how contentious this thread is. We can really talk about some emo can't we?

Mindy

#65- DCFC is considered emo? I thought they were... er...like... um... indie rock, or the new adult indie rock... or something? They seem pretty good, actually. I liked SDRE first album, the one that was on Sub-pop. At some point we just got to get over these labels, and just like what we like, but that's just me. I'm drawing a blank on the others. My emo cred is shot- I'll never be cool... thank god for Mindy cred, though (see Homestar Runner for that- teen girl squad... the valentines one- 7? or 9?)!

#66- "Oh yeah Oh no, it doesn't have to be so
Forces of the creative mind are unstoppable!"

#72- Goth is now apparently passe while Emo is not, at least that's what I gather. The music is also different, and I get the sense that most Emo kids are not into philosophical theory and romantic writers like many of the goths I used to hang with. It comes off to me as really being a created youth subculture, but perhaps that's just my old lady crotchiness kicking in. Perhaps I'm wrong? Like I said I don't know much about the emo kids running around these days. I'm unhip and out of the loop.

Mindy

@#27-
I think we have a new theory of history!!! Congratulations. When is this ground breaking thesis going to be complete! ;-)

@#28-
Awesome. I can so see that conversation going down in any news room anywhere.

Mindy

@#20-
Oh.... so much thanks for the translations. And see... I told you guys Hare Krishna's were awesome!!!

#22
Also being in the thirty something state, I have to say that your not past the point of commenting! These aren't just "youth cultures"- that's just the way they are marketed... it's something you do in your "indiscreet" youth, that way people like Jello Biafra can be categorized as being childish, when he is a smart social critic (but he's just an aging rocker, right?). That's an interesting point about the difference between Punk and Emo. The views of punk at the time were pretty harsh- Sex Pistols couldn't play in the UK at all for a while. I don't know much about emo, but it seems much less about social commentary as an aesthetic/artistic choice then punk was- but I'm unclear if this was always the case (was Sunny Day Real Estate Emo- I seem to remember them having that designation?). I think that sub-cultures are now being actively co-opted, and maybe even created, much earlier (as soon as they became "named" and spread to wide audiences) and being stripped of any originality and social commentary context in the process by the major labels, hot topics, etc- probably intentionally so. It's become about the thing that counter-cultures have often been about.

#23-
Elias Canettis Crowds and Power- is it similar to Laclau's "On Populist Reasons" or is it more about the psychology of crowds?

Mindy

Holy crap, the Hare Krishna's at the end were great! Anyone know what is being said by the newscasters? I'm a dumb American who knows no Spanish...

Mindy

Damn it, Takuan beat me to it! But right on the $$ as always.

Is it just me, or does the whole world just keep missing the point of "alternative communities" or whatever we want to box it up as (counter-cultures, sub-cultures, hippies, punks, goths, emos, mods, rockers, Str8 edgers, skinheads, oi boys, glam kids, beats, flappers... you get my point- are they discreet historical events, or are they an interconnected phenomenon? Opinions?)? "Look at me, I dress a certain way- I'm soooo different, don't hate me for being different, cause everyday is halloween, ya know- look, someone who is different from me- I'm gonna go beat the crap out of them now, cause anyone who is not like me sucks- cause they aren't like me!". Huh? I think I'm just sick of boxes, even self imposed ones to some extent. I think these are some of the issues I'm interested in looking at in my academic work, anyhow- self-definition vs. outsider definition, that sort of nonsense.

Blah... I'm just avoiding homework now.

Mindy

Oh, that is really funny. If they tricked both of them into interviews, they should at least let them see the damn thing.

Yeah, Stein being involved in this really annoys me, but what can you do.

Not to say that "Darwin caused the Nazis".... but Hitler's racist ideas were not exactly completely out of line with a good deal with thinkers of the day. Eugenics and social Darwinism were mainline scientific points of view (there were departments of eugenics at some universities). Same for fields like Orientalism, which certainly propose a racist view of Arabs. Race was seen often in a evolutionary light (Galton) and was used to justify all sorts of brutality, the Holocaust being the most extreme and obvious and certainly led to abandoning of these views in the mainstream. To say that "Darwin caused the Nazis" is not true of course, but Hitler was not alone in thinking that there was a hierarchy of race, and that whites were "more evolved" than "other races". Isn't it a bit ahistorical and a bit disingenuous to go around saying that Hitler did not draw *anything* from the thoughts going around in his day and that he was an aberration?

Mindy

Looks like an interesting book, perhaps...

They aren't admitting either way if he admitted to a drug conviction on the form that I guess you have to fill out. If he put that, then I guess that is enough to keep him out under the rules. But yeah- one conviction, 25 years ago? That's a little silly, if you ask me.

Mindy

@#4- Takuan, thanks for posting that. All too often, this sort of thing gets shuffled off into "theoritical" land, and we forget, that at the heart of this all is people, real live human beings who are being abused and hurt. When you think in terms of actually humanity, you begin to focus on what is really important.

@# 7- Teapunk, maybe we need to look at the whole structure of nation-state, and see what is wrong with it, not just individual nations. Let's face it, more and more we are dealing with similar sorts of state and economic structures. I think perhaps Fukuyama was right in stating that liberal states are going to become the hegemonic paradigm (see, I bitch about theory and then use theory to prove my point). Fukuyama asserts that this is "natural progression" and has nothing to do with choice and power dynamics. I disagree with him here... Nothing is inevitable. Ernesto Laclau says in his book on populism, "History is not a predetermined process." Also, "History cannot be conceived therefore as an infinite advance towards an ultimate aim." So, what causes the nation-state to be so brutal, even in it's more liberal and democratic forms.

I think that if we really respect human rights, as we claim, we would pull out of the Olympics. Not that anyone here really pays attention to them anyway.

Mindy

First, I assume that people have been using these documents for research way before these guys did this footwork... Historians have been sorting through piles of crap for centuries, I doubt we'll stop sorting through piles of crap now just because some of it is scanned and in an electronic format. Granted, it's easier to find when it's in an electronic format sometimes, but the physical archives aren't going away anytime soon.

Second, I guess I'm unclear as to what they are claiming they exclusively own- the documents themselves, or the, as Ken says, indexing mechanism. They clearly can not own the public domain documents, because they are public domain... right? Or am I misunderstanding the public in public domain.

@ #4- Scans as the derivative work? Well, isn't that silly? I mean, I could go a make a copy of a page of a book- that is not a derivative work. Some might call it copyright infringement, actually.

Mindy

@47- Sure. It's a neat movie...

We sooo need to get a netflix account. They closed the video store we used to rent from here recently.

Still find the gnome creepy, but I still think it's a prank of some sort.

Mindy

I would say prank, too. Creepy though... The way the kids screams.... But it also reminds me of "Behind the Mask: the Rise of Leslie Vernon", which we recently saw, turning the creepy supernatural mass murderer paradigm on it's head, by asserting that anything that Jason Vorhees (and the like) does can have perfectly logical, non-supernatural explanations. Anyone else seen that yet? It's really good and worth the time. Go check it out, if you haven't.

Mindy

Weird. Or another way of making a fast buck of hero worship. Or... I have to agree with Kate... it makes me a feel a little icky, too.

Mindy

Right... last word on this from me (until a new post). My article on Albin Kurti:

http://www.trakmarx.com/?p=211

It sums up my feelings about the issue over all. Enjoy...

Mindy

That- both video and song- is most excellent!!!

Mindy

#12- I like that...

Mindy

Round 2!

First, as I said, I find is suspicious that the US embassy was empty before the protest last night... just my own paranoia...

And I think it's sad that dissident serbs were not allowed into Kosova to express solidarity with other activist. This is just what Albin Kurti has been talking about, reinforcement of ethnic tensions, which leads to only more tension. This independence is not going to work... If I could be more paranoid, I'd say that was the plan all along, to show that these people can't work together and need a "guiding hand" to control them.

I'm sorry all of this is happening. I'm really ashamed of the Western role in all of this as well. I wish there was more I could do than write about it.

Mindy

Clearly I've lost my marbles and gone off the deep end. Sorry. God forbid I step out side the agreed upon narrative!

You so rock, Antinous!

Mindy

#62- Well, that's good. I'd hate to think you think I was some dumb American... Maybe I am... I don't know. Maybe I am biased towards Kosovan Albanians. I'm not for what is happening, don't get me wrong. I'm firmly on the side of Albin Kurti's view of self-determination. He makes the most sense to me.

First, can you tell me what I'm not understanding, in your view? Thanks.

Next, I want to say that I don't imagine that I'm only the friends of Kosovans Albanians. I'm a friend of anyone, I could care less where people come from. I do take issue with jingoism and ultra-nationalism, however, even here. I have no illusions about my country. Nor do I blame the serbian people (not all of them, anyhow) for any/all of this. It's clear to me that it is a crazy mix of outside pressure over the the end of the 19th and into the 20th century, the bickering of major colonial and then post-colonial powers that is largely responsible. However, I think someone else said it- why can't we let the people decide? What is wrong with that? I think it was #16, Antinous. The big issues is once again Western countries looking down their nose at everyone else and imposing what they think is right- which is what is happening in Kosova. Check David Chandler's book on Bosnia to see the mess the UN made there and is making in Kosova. Corruption scandal and lies. Everyone worries about Serbs in Kosova, but hey, I have to deal with living in a country where less than half of the eligible voters decided to elect a moron as the president for these past 8 years. Democracy isn't perfect, but it's better than dictatorship of whatever kind. If they (Serbs and Albanians) are forced into a situation where there economic well-being is interdependent, if their children's future is interdependent, will they not have more of a reason to work together in the first place? Seems like they would.

As for Macedonia.... First, I think I meant bulgaria not Hungary, so I apologize for that. The bulgarians were quite active in trying to have a claim in the area in the early part of the last century. This is not true now, as far as I know, but that does not mean it's irrelevant. Check out Keith Brown's book "The Past in Question" which is a discussion on Macedonian nationalism. I actually think that Macedonia should be an independent state and in fact it is. I'm glad about that, actually. No reason it shouldn't be. Greek Nationalist should not be trying to impose a view of the area that ignores the Macedonian people and their wishes. But we do have to get back to the concept of what constitutes a national identity and question it, especially considering it's constructed not natural, though that doesn't make it less real. If being Macedonian or American, or Irish, or what have you is a construction, where does that leave us in terms of the creation of a nation-state?

Honestly, I have no answers, I just know that the ones I hear from all sides I find wholly unsatisfactory for the most part. And maybe I'm just sticking my opinion in where it does not belong, and that is more than fair to say, of course. But, we live in a mutually dependent world now, and what happens there matters here and vice versa. I think the biggest democratic failure here is most certainly that American voters lack of interest in foreign policy, so it becomes the playground of special interest and specialist with axes to grind (Bernard Lewis comes to mind- how we just immediately adopt his view of Muslims without questioning it's historic accuracy). It's this lack of interest, as well as too much of our government making these decisions by fiat as opposed to democratically, that makes me worry. More people should care about the rest of the world and take an active interest, and a critical look at what is happening.

Also- I think that everyone sort of wants the EU to be this bastion of tolerance and acceptance, when clearly it is not. There is a hell of a lot of racism that still is pervasive in the EU (against Romanians, Turks, Muslims of all kinds, Algerians, need I go on). I'm all about trying to get past all that. Americans are bad too. Boy, some people just go on and on about Mexicans in a really racist tone. If they said the same things about black people, then they would rightly be called a bigot... You can also compare it to turn of the 20th century rhetoric about Irish and Italian immigrants. Breeding is always my favorite, considering Americans have the highest birth rate of any developed nation. I know tons of people with 3 or more kids.

As for international law- shouldn't people and human rights be at the center of that? The UN in the post cold war era has failed time and again to protect people all around the world. My question, what are we to do about that, when all too often it is international law that prevents us from making the moral choice. It angers me no end to think about Rwanda, when for so long my government spent all that time defining what genocide was while all those people were murdered. Does it matter what you call it when peoples limbs are being hacked off? Should we preserve international law at all cost, even if it leads to such atrocities?

Anyway... I hope I'm not pushing you away. I think sadly we do spend time on un-pretty things... But I find this discussion interesting, like I said. And it is important to talk about.

Again, I blah way too much. Hope you can forgive me for that!

Mindy

#43- Wait, what? What did I do? What was that for? Thanks, though... ;-)

Both Takuan and Milena, I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on these two topics. I'm not convinced that humans are doomed to violent actions, nor am I convinced that all problems in the Balkans can be essentialized to ethnic tensions that the people in the region can't overcome. I just think human nature is more complex than all that (maybe I'm too optimistic, I don't know). I do like reading both of you post very much, and I think you both bring up great points which I try to take into consideration... so thanks!

#45- I do think that the problem with wikipedia can be that it can be very inaccurate on controversial topics (as is often shown by the debate that is often up on such topics). The history of Kosova is much in dispute now because of modern politics. How a history is written is largely due to modern politics, nationalistic (in this case) or otherwise (in the case of Ottoman history, it's all too often informed by certain prejudices), sadly. Historians (myself included) are not completely objective purveyors of fact, as many believe. What we study, how we study, the sources we use, the way we set up our time periods in our work- these can all can show a subjective point of view in our work. It's just the way it is (didn't marx say the point was not just to study, but to change things). I just don't believe that history is or can be an objective science. We can, however, not distort facts or stuff theme into the structure of our thesis when writing just to fit our political ends. If something contradicts our thesis, then we must revise our thesis and move forward from there.

#57- Because after all, the bible is a story of facts (also it's hardly the oldest book by any stretch of the imagination)? Plus, Macedonia has no history of being in dispute, does it? Not between Greece and Hungary? Have not both countries claimed it the region in the past, and isn't that now why it has the name F.Y.R.O.M instead of Macedonia (at Greek insistence)... And I guess since I'm in the west I'm incapable of reading a book and thinking critically about the subject matter. I mean, after all, that's just what I plan on doing for a living, so I guess I never do that... Not to be a bitch and I'm not trying to pick on you, but I just don't think it's fair to say that because of where I'm born I can't possibly understand another place in any meaningful way. If I said that about someone from another country, everyone would rightly say that I'm being biased. I'm no expert on the region and I'm not claiming that at all, but I do like to think I have some sort of grasp on events there, at least more than the average American... At least I care about something other than American Idol.

#55- I say I'd have to take anything at World Net daily with an ocean of salt...

#59- I think this independence is a shell game for Kosovan's as well, actually, not just for Serbs. It's not "real" independence, just yet another supervised that will lead to more hostility between Serbs and Albanians in Kosova. It has no real meaning, if you ask me. The EU/UN will still have ruling bodies there not accountable to the voting public.

#60- I do think it's sort of convenient that no one was around in the American Embassy to get killed, don't you? I mean how did they know this was going to occur unless they had been told in advance. Not like the people in the embassy in Iran had advanced warning in the 70s was it.

Anyway- great discussion you guys! I'm thinking hard and learning alot!

Mindy

#30- I too cower in fear of chimps, of humans often times, too. I'm not denying that we do some craptacular things. We are scary chimps, often the scariest. But we are just more than that, too. Why should we be constrained by perceived limitations when so often the limitations that we've applied to ourselves have been shown to be false. As much as chimps are like us, there is some fundamental differences, don't you agree or no?

#29- I would say your facts are a bit in dispute by a number of historians. I'm not so sure that the whole "muslims ethnically cleansing serbs during the Nazi era" is agreed upon in the literature...

Mindy

#22- You don't think they got along for the most part under the ottoman empire? Considering the amount of intermarriage that occurred? Many call Muslims in the Balkans Turks, but is that accurate really? If someone liked Islam, and felt it was right for them despite being a Slav or Greek or whatever, why wouldn't they convert? The use of "turk" to describe Balkan Muslims is surely a misnomer, in so much as it now describes an ethnicity. I do think these tensions are more a product of the modern era, a product of the imperial and nation-state context? How do we define these terms in the early modern or pre-modern era, anyway? Did they actually have the same meaning then as they do now? That is not to say that violence didn't happen, but I just doubt they were built around such terms... if that makes sense.

#19- Can we really compare ourselves to the chimps, in any meaningful way? What really is the fundamental difference between us and apes? Can't it be argued that it is our ability to see ourselves in an abstract way and to represent the world in abstract notions? I'm not promoting that idea per se, cause what makes us human is up for debate- I have no clue what really makes us human. But if we get bogged down in things like "we are violent by nature" or "we can't overcome our differences" or "we are defined by our nationality, race, or the like" or "all good music comes from major labels so why should I make my own" or "I have no role in shaping our government" don't we turn it into a self fulfilling prophecy? It's like people who use the bible (or whatever holy book you like) to justify wars, the whole "wars and rumors of wars" until the end of time... well, okay, we can define our modern condition by a book written 2000 or so years ago, or we can actually try to use the brains that are there for a reason (again- take you pick) and work our problems out. I just find that kind of thinking self-defeating on some level... Not that you aren't right to be pessimistic on some level about human nature. We tend to do some pretty crappy things, I'll grant you. But we do some pretty kick ass things too, if you ask me. Just look around at this fine example of human ingenuity- meaning not only boing boing, but many of the fine things found on the tubes, or music, or books, or Alan Moore... Just to name of few.

Blah... I type too much.

Mindy

#17- Yep. Cause we all know how great imperialism was for the world, don't we?

Mindy

#13- Where does this supposed "intrinsic violent nature" hypothesis come from? maybe it's other factors that make us violent, not our natures. How can we really even know what are very natures are if we are constantly bombarded by information about who we are and what we are supposed to be. I don't think this is just a function of the modern age either.

Mindy

Oh dear.... sorry... I double posted. I'm a loser! Can I remove the extra one? Can some wonderful moderator do so. Sorry for my utter tech-uselessness.

#12! What an excellent point!!! I heartily agree, with something approaching gusto! Maybe it has to do with nation-states holding a supposedly monopoly on violence? Perhaps?

Mindy

I'd saddened by all this, of course.

#1- I'm afraid this sort of thing just gets us right back to where we started from, no? Not all Serbs are bad, of course not. What a silly, reductionist point of view... What is race/ethnicity but a mere construction, even if it feels very real to us, but such constructions can take other non-ethinic, non-nationalistic, non-religious forms.

#7- I have to agree with #9 here. What makes Macedonia any different from Kosova? Why do the people of Kosova not get the chance to make that choice instead of having choices imposed on them? And yes, I think that, due mainly to the imposition of state structures by UNMIK and now the EU, this is all under the thumb of the west and it will ultimately be reinforcing of ethnic/religious lines, mainly because the people in charge do not think that people who are different can get along in any meaningful way, hence they set up structures that reinforce that. That's a load, but hey... if the people in charge say it, everyone dances to that line then, don't they? There is no real reason, if you put Serbs and Albanians together, Muslims and Christians together into a situation where they are mutually dependent that they will eventually come together and work things out, because their future will depend on it, and more importantly so will the future of their children. That is of course the biggest problem of the current "independence" of Kosova, that it is reinforcing of the ethnic divisions that began to exist after the Ottoman Empire was driven out. If Serbs and Albanians, Christians and Muslims can't get along, how did they do it for so very long, I'd like to know?

Anyway... as usually, Jasmina's posts are informative, thoughtful, and well put. I'm glad that she's sending post to Boing Boing about Serbia's situation... I wish there were more like her in the world.

Mindy

#36) I agree about ignoring the ethnic cleansing... but, I talked to my prof, who is from Kosova, yesterday (he'd just gotten back) how was Kosova- he said "boisterous, yet I think a bit naive". I can't help but agree with that. It's not like Kosova is getting full independence here, a point that everyone seems to be forgetting. Basically, UNMIK is moving out and the EU is moving in- the "western" overclass that has grown up around UN presence in Kosova (and Bosnia, for that matter) is not going away (but will continue to bleed Kosovars and Bosnians dry economically). The west does not think that the Balkan people can handle independence (they have not evolved as far as us oh so enlightened westerners, or some such nonsense), so the west (the US, EU, and Russia as well) keep putting their noses in to "correct" their behavior. We act as if all of what happens in the Balkans is independent and "natural" of events in the rest of the world, and influences from the outside and that we are just swooping in to save them from themselves... How much of what happens in the region comes from our direct involvement, and how much did come from our direct involvement in the first place (back when Serbia broke out of the Ottoman Empire, for example- you're gonna tell me that was all Serbia's idea, and had nothing to do with Russian and Austria-Hungry political interference? Get real! ) If the region is a mess, you have to in part blame outside interference as well as this insistence that the only way to have a stable country is to have it ethnically/religious homogeneous, and guess where that brilliant idea comes from. I'm not saying that all Serbs are bad guys, and that all Kosovars are good guys. That is reductionist and wrong. Of course there are bad Serbs and bad Kosovars and vice versa, but condemning an entire nation of people is always wrong. I am saying that I think that most of both countries are just over it, and are probably tired of everyone getting involved in their internal affairs that leads to these sorts of problems...

#37- I think that is very interesting, actually... What does that tell you about the good side of human nature, that we can be good to one another. As soon as you give in a positive way, you do get back in a positive way. Call it Karma, god, just being human, whatever... all these things that seem to divide us are just man made constructions, and the hegemony of the nation-state keeps instilling in us these notions that for whatever reason (different language, color, beliefs, etc) we can't get along on a human level (the world is not a "binary" place). As all these things are constructions, it is absurd on it's face.

That's just my $.02 on this issue. Yet another loud mouthed American pontificating on things she knows nothing about. I go back to my petty little counter-cultural historical fiefdom now.

Mindy

I too applaud Milena's response. It gives a great over view of historical events in the region, the conflict of ethnicity, religion, etc, which in reality, all come down to political constructions (but who cares what is a construction, when it is real in the minds of people...). Too many people want to ignore history and just chalk it up to ethnic/religious tensions that are 1) universal and 2) natural and 3) historical (even if they are not). All too often the reductionist view takes hold, and we forget that what is going on right now is part of a long process of events that is made by people, not nature.

I think what makes me the saddest about issues like this is that everyone seems to want to reduce the issue and ignore the fact that this is really about people whose lives will be affected by decisions made in places of power. I feel for you and your family Jake, as well as for everyone in Kosova and even Serbia, because this has an impact on your lives much more so then mine. All too often, we want to reduce this all to numbers and meaninglessness just to make it go away and not understand that these things can be changed. Why do we have to think that war and hatred is natural?

Mindy

As always, Tesanovic gives this complex topic the thoughtfulness it deserves... Glad to read her stuff, as always.

I've been watching this very closely, and I find myself conflicted. Ethnically dividing the area will not help, but it's clear that the majority in the region (meaning Kosova) do not want to remain part of greater Serbia... Nor do they want to largely Serbian area of Kosova divided from greater Kosova. I find Albin Kurti's arguments most compelling, reject of the UN/EU plans, which is not real independence, a vote for independence, and getting the overlords packing... And how much does it matter how the kosovar Albanians got there, really (we can argue for ages about how whatever group that is here in the states got here, but we can't change that at all, can we?)- I'd suspect it would have something to do with the fact that the area was always ethnically diverse given that it was under the Ottoman empire until, what, the end of the 19th century and also because of utter lunatic in charge of Albania during the communist era (Hoxja- who spent much of his time driving out Albanians who were from different groups than his own). I'm keeping my fingers crossed on all this and hope it works out. All we need is yet another war so we can hear, smugly, how we in the "west" have to take over for everyone else, because they can't handle "modernity" or some such nonsense. Like we aren't constantly fudging things up all over the place.

Again, great article!

Mindy

Oh, how I loooove this video. It's been ages since I've seen it. The archives are such a treasure trove of awesomeness, which is where I originally saw this one (in the heady days before the youtube)!

Thanks for posting it!

Mindysan

Coming not long after the news of Pratchett, this really makes me very sad. These are two of my favorite writers. I love his books. :-( I am looking forward to his autobio, though. I wonder if it will be available state side (I had to order his last from GB).

Thanks for the links.

Mindysan

Interesting. I love those. The first one is from Pakistan, huh? Hmmmm...

I had totally forgotten about the Pilot of the Lone Gunmen, Cpt. Tim. Thanks so much for posting about it.

Mindysan

Depressing...

Machine- I think you're just showing the general ignorance and lack of curiosity that some here seem to have about the rest of the world. You also seem to be advocating an openly imperialist policy, which has largely gotten us where we are today. I'd suspect that most of "those people" would like what we have- which is choice, a bit of self-determination, and the ability to live in peace and not have to worry about if there kids will get blown to bits if they send them to school or down the street to do some shopping for the family, or whatever. I doubt the vast majority of Pakistanis, Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis, Egyptians, Kosovars, Bosnians, etc, want to live in violent countries under repressive regimes. Would you? The Muslim community is no monolith, as our state department seems to think. It's pretty diverse. It's like saying that all Christian countries (or Christian majority countries) are alike. How much like Britain, or Germany, or France are we? I really wish some people have some iota of imagination...

I doubt that she was as great as everyone made her out to be, seems a bit cult of personalitish (?) to me. But- she did in part represent opposition to the military rule. How can that be a bad thing? Things are just getting worse by the second around the world and we just seem to be stumbling around making it worse...

Mindysan

Yay! Good news!

Mindy

That's depressing news. I love his books. I have several by him that I have not read, that I'll be diving into since my semester is over... In the mean time, I'll go have a nice cry, I think... :-(

Mindy

That's awesome! Good artwork is a big help in selling a book, I think.

I'm looking forward to reading this to my daughter. More writers I like should write children's/YA books. But really only because it gives me an excuse to read good fiction during my semesters- since I never have time to read for fun during them. That's what I get for studying history, I suppose- a life of non-fiction reading.

Mindysan

We ordered one and are looking forward to getting it (hopefully in time for X-mas). I think all 3 of us will dig it (me, hubby, child).

Personally, I think this is a great initiative and think that Nicholas Negroponte is a great guy for dreaming this up. I wish more people who do charitable work would think outside the box in this way... Don't know about his brother, though.

Mindysan

You guys are all hella funny. And this so makes me want Falafel. Sooo good. And it reminds me that I knew a guy once who had a shirt that said 'falafel house' in arabic (like Waffle house, only for arabs... or something like that).

This makes my brain hurt. There are so many things wrong with it, I can't even begin.

Mindy

Awesome pics. But is there some sort of article that goes with this? I'm so confused... and tired.

Mindysan

Lovely.

Mindysan

Tom Cruise is weird. Just weird.

RP said the same things he has been saying...

And the Pistols were boring... oh so boring, I'm so sad to say. Anyone catch the reformed New York Dolls awhile ago on Rollin's show? Much better performance, if you ask me. SP is just out to make a buck, which Lydon's said many a time. At least he's honest about it, unlike all the other bands who've recently reformed... I'm lookin' at you Bauhaus, the Banshee's, and Skinny Puppy!!!

Mindy

I'm not liking this racist rhetoric of Paul's. I find it utterly depressing. But I'm not crazy about certain aspects of the libertarian platform anyhow. At this point I'm way too jaded to get too excited over anyone in this large pool of candidates, with the exception of one Dr. Stephen T. Colbert, DFA. Too bad he's only running SC... sigh... :-(

I've noticed that most people either think the london punk scene was authentic, or they think it's a big rip off of the earlier US scenes, which would inform ones opinion about the Pistols (in fact, when I was writing a paper on the topic of London punk, this one punk kid at school I had a class with expressed his disdain for the Pistols and the London scene in no uncertain terms when we were chatting about books on punk). It seems to depend on which variant of punk you like, I've noticed. I think of the sex pistols as being used, mostly. They were all incredibly young when they got together. Certainly, McLaren was jumping on a particular band (ha, get it band- I'm so funny...) wagon in his management of them, but so was the manager for the Clash (whose name is escaping me at the moment? Bernie Rhodes, is that right?). And he was famous for that, anyhow. I like them, but I'm not a huge fan, but they have a place in history, I think- especially on the impact they had on other bands- how many folks saw them, said, I can do that, and then did it. Joy Division comes to mind. PIL was always a much better band, but my personal taste tend to lean towards post-punk anyhow. I might tune in, just to see what happens. It seems like a bizarre trio on the show, though, doesn't it?

Mindysan

Oops! I think I'm confusing my chetniks with my Ustashas! Sorry- If I paid more attention in class... ;-) Chetniks were Serb nationalist and Ustasha were Croat nationalist, both of whom collaborated. According to Phillips, Chetniks had wide support from the Serb population, while the Ustashas did not have wide support from Croats. He also says that a higher percentage of Croat Jews survived vs Serbian Jews.

I mean opinions on what she said in light of Cohen's claims about Serbian complicity during the war.

She says that Serbs were victims during the War, hence it makes no sense that they want to invite Neo-nazis in. She says:

How can Serbia become the center for modern Nazi fans whose idol Hitler bent every effort to exterminate Jews, gypsies and of course Serbs?

And she says:

Hannah Arendt writes how Eichmann, during his trial in Jerusalem, was pathetically trying to be entirely truthful about his facts and orders...never lying about killing somebody or sparing them. Except for one bureaucratic detail -- those eight thousand Serbs whom Eichmann personally ordered killed within Serbia. Serbs were so invisible and expendable that Eichmann took a unique initiative in their case.

Now, we all know that the Nazis had a policy of eliminating their "enemies" (both racial and political, often conflating the two). The numbers that Cohen points out of Serbs that died were way overinflated for political reasons. He claims that Serbian dead in the Jesanovac camp was inflated to some 700,000 and Tito's government hushed up more accurate records. His point is that Serbs were generally more likely to be pro-nazi and supportive of the Chetnik government, while Croats were generally not supportive of the Ustasha government. Of course, there are all sorts of issues with such generalizations.

Does that make sense? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not attacking Tesanovic, cause I think she's terrific. I wish more like her existed in the world... I just get nervous around nationalism in general. Considering the situation with Kosovo, it seems like a good idea to be wary. I'm also no expert on these matters.

Thanks-
Mindy

Yay! I always like Jasmina Tesanovic's work. She does good stuff.

I'm currently taking a class on the Balkan's and one of the books I've read is "Serbia's Secret War" by Phillip Cohen. He lays out an argument that basically says that many Serb nationalist were complicit with the Nazis. He calls the victimization of large numbers of the Serbian population by Nazis a myth, in fact, saying that while Chetniks (Croatia), who committed numerous atrocities during the war, never gained widespread Croatian support, while many Serbs supported the Nazi backed nationalist Serbian regime. While he does agree that there were Serb victims, the numbers have been inflated by Serb nationalist since the end of WW2, and used as a propaganda tool since then. Opinions on this in regards to Tesanovic's article here. I guess this goes to complicity of a population, ala Christopher Browning or Daniel Goldhagen. Anyone?

Thanks-
Mindysan

Bad news.

I think bad things are going to happen in 08. I wouldn't be surprised if we invade Iran, Pakistan ends up in a civil war, and I bet that the Kosovo/Serbia issue will come to some sort of a nasty conclusion. Things are not going to be peaceful. But everyone crowing about "clash of civilizations" will be happy, because they can say they were right all along... Bah.

Mindysan

I wouldn't cite a wikipedia entry, just like you generally don't cite an encyclopedia entry (site or cite????). I think depending on the paper, a blog is a horse of a different color.

I wonder if Chicago will get this update soon (I haven't looked for it, but the edition I have is 15th, which is from 2003- I don't know if there is a newer one out or not). It's not surprising, really. It was only a matter of time before this became more accepted. More and more info (good and bad) can be found on the tubes (for better or worse, but I think it's good in the sense that more information being available is better), so how to cite this information is important. I don't write about medicine, I write about history, but considering what I want to do in grad school, this sort of citation could be quite useful.