Moderator

"Evidence @91: Don't call Arkizzle by nicknames unless the two of you are friends -- which you aren't, yet."

He called me Evi I took it as a friendly gesture and called him arky or something.

"Evidence @96: "I will catch up tomorrow gotta go."Not like this, you won't. If you persist in posting canned explanations, I'll disemvowel them."

What is a canned explanation? What is disemvowel?

"Also, stop leaving extra line returns in your messages."

I also don't understand this. Is it returns at the end of the total message or something like that?

So only like minded people are allowed here? Is that what you are telling me? TAKUAN can go by and say something totally random like" I wear gold slippers!!!" adds to the thread and that is fine?
I will go if I am not wanted but I enjoy my conversations here.

@MODUSOPERANDI
"Don't ever go into law enforcement."

That made me chuckle. I see what you are saying. I bring a lifetime of thought and meaning when I say it that way. Those who hold to the same world view that I do know what I mean when I say it like that so forgive me I need to be clearer. I think we all agree when we converse with people with opposing views we learn to express our thoughts more clearly, or should.

The laws that God gave all come with the death penalty as their punishment. "The wages of sin is death."

So I said it the way I did knowing that I deserved the death sentence for every infraction. I am glad I live in the age of grace.

"He didn't have to take the punishment for breaking the rules that He knows we can't consistently follow "

Yes you are getting it. See many think the laws are given for us to live by to make us holy and acceptable too God. Not true. They are given to show us that God is holy and we are not.

James (the book 1:23-25) compares the law to a mirror. We look at the mirror of the law and see we are dirty and this drives us to the wash basin of Jesus to clean us.

"Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound." The law was given so we would sin more because we now have something to measure ourselves by. It is there to frustrate us and break us so we will humble ourselves and ask Him to save us because we cannot save ourselves. It show us our need for a Savior.

"Thats merciful and just."
Um, no. That, by definition, cannot be both merciful and just.
Mercy is "compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one's power; compassion, pity, or benevolence", while justice is "the administering of deserved punishment or reward". One is letting you off for things you did, and the other is punishing you for things you did.

It is exactly as you describe it.

Merciful because He did not leave me in my lost state, He showed pity to me and compassion and benevolence by sending Jesus to take my punishment upon Himself for me.

It is just because He did not wipe my sins away arbitrarily but paid for them. It was a legal transaction. Jesus paid my fine, now my court case could be dismissed because payment had been made. I do not go to Heaven because I or anyone is a good person but because my sins have been paid for, my death sentence has been commuted by the court. I am forgiven and payment for my violations have been made by my kind benefactor, Jesus.

"To damn a child for disobedience not the act of a benevolent parent.

Not an exact apples to apples comparison but as close as we could get. The child would be punished by a loving parent and the child now knows the parent was truthful, right, kind in warning them, looking out for their best interests, and that they (the child) are disobedient and suffers for their disobedience (burns....), they should listen and respect the parent that loves them. We should save ourselves some pain and listen.

"Suffering wasn't Gods choosing but He does use it to draw us to Him."
That's the saddest thing I've ever heard."

I can not do this justice right now but if you want me too I can explain more later. (Think the child being burned as above)

"Faith lacking evidence can be okay, I guess. Faith in the face of the evidence, however, is daft."

I totally agree with you. It comes down to who or what we trust for our information. Remember information is only as reliable as its source so we need to choose wisely who or what we trust. You all throw up Pascal I say run to the evidence but look at it without bias and truely seek the truth.

Xopher

Are you saying you believe there are spiritual forces at work in the universe that we can't place in a lab and experiment on?

Gotta go catch you tomorrow.

"Long-suffering= Didn't kill me the minute I first sinned."

"See? I knew our definitions were different. Long suffering to me is "patiently enduring wrongs or difficulties"."

I don't see how our definitions are different.

He gave you an out for not being able to be perfect, rather than punishing you eternally for not being so. That's an odd take on justice and mercy.

How so? He didn't have to make away of escape. He didn't have to take the punishment on Himself. Thats merciful and just. Sins Paid for mercy given.

And the best part is you just have to believe the right thing, rather than be the best, imperfect, person you can be.

Because the best imperfect being I can be is still imperfect. His standard is perfection.

"If you love something let it go. And if it loves you it will return."
God's version: If you love something and it disobeys you, kick it out of the garden...

Adam knew the rules before he disobeyed. Suffering wasn't Gods choosing but He does use it to draw us to Him. He warned the cities before they attacked, they choose to stay and fight. What about you? You seem to know what is expected and the consequences for disobedience and still fight. Why? You don't want a good ending?

for finite sins

We sin against an infinite God so we pay for it proportionately.

If I kill an ant = nothing happens to me.

If I kill a deer without a license = A fine is placed against me.

If I kill a person = Jail and or death for me.

Same thing "Killing" but what I killed determined my punishment. Breaking any of the commandments are sins against an infinite God so they are paid for eternally.

I don't understand "O_O"

I thought guy witches were warlocks?

@ MODUSOPERANDI

"Who was Adam, anyway? Who were his parents?"

Adam was the first man. God was his Father, no bellybutton.

And why does Genesis say that everything before "the Fall" was a vegetarian (Gen1:29-30), when that is clearly false, as vores (both omni and carn) pre-exist homo sapiens sapiens by a considerable margin?

Vores, as you put it, were before Adam but only by a few hours. They were made the first part of the 6th day and Adam was made a little before Eve. (He he)

They were vegetarian. They became meat eaters after the fall. The fall changed everything.

We have only observed the fallen world so don't fall into the trap of thinking as it is today is how its always been.

"He is long-suffering, kind, patient,merciful, gracious, and loving."
Your definitions of these words must be different than mine.

Long-suffering= Didn't kill me the minute I first sinned.

kind, patient,merciful = same as above.

Gracious, and loving= same plus He made the way of escape for me. He did not have to I don't deserve it.

I think of it as in this old adage.

If you love something let it go. And if it loves you it will return.

Will you return? The choice is ours. Hell is just what many ask for and God gives it to them.

No God, no Christians, no Church. But filled with plenty of false christians, false churches and false gods.

I don't remember saying I was a rodeo clown.

Thanks for the type tips. I have tried them above so I hope they work. If not I will look like a rodeo clown.

NELSON.C understands me!

@ MODUSOPERANDI

"The original was made, as we all are, with free will. The "bug" was failing to follow the program as given (eg rebellion not curious)."
And when was this original?"

The original that Arkizzle and I were referring to was Adam, the first, original man.

"But we aren't omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent."

He is long-suffering, kind, patient,merciful, gracious, and loving. I was appealing to these qualities that we do have in our possession.

"Jesus is the "patch" as you call it. He came to fix us."
Except that He doesn't actually fix us. It's more a work-around, really."

Clever but He does fix us. He makes us new. We cannot fix ourselves.

When I am charge with being judgmental aren't you judging me? Isn't that hypocritical of you? Only atheists and agnostics can be judge things?

I have no problem with you judging me just don't yell at me for it while you are doing it.

I have not charged anyone with anything (from the Bible) that I have not charge myself with.

??How do you guy get italic and bold type?

t s bcs w cr.

f w (Chrstns) ddn't spk p y wld cll s cld nd crl fr nt wrnng y.

Why wld n thst cr bt nythng? Lt ln wht blv. f thr s nthng why cmmnt? Why bthr?

Tenn you made me laugh.

NELSON.C is right Graham does look like like Max Headroom.

KMGRABA ,

"Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, nothing more."

Then why aren't they silent? Why do they protest against something they say is not there?

NOEN

"What dishonest lies do atheists keep trying to push...

That Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief."

I agree with you.

Not gone because of heat just responsibilities. There is a time variable to consider as well. I post something and it is time stamped 12:00 and it 4:00 where I am. So allow some grace.

@Arky

"wait.. can't we just sue GodCorp® for making the original Human™ v1.0 faulty (eg. curious), and then blaming the rest of us for his uber-non-l33t modding skillz?"

This was clever. The original was made, as we all are, with free will. The "bug" was failing to follow the program as given (eg rebellion not curious). (do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).

"What a noob"

He is a noob for not making us robots who blindly follow programs?

You write a program for your computer. Write in an option that allows it to not follow your code when it wants. See how long it is before you smash it to pieces. What until it calls you a noob for allowing it its freedom. Let it say "Why did you make me so" Then ask yourself "How kind/patient you would I be" towards it.

"Surely sin is just the original ticket in the bug-submission-system of human development, and the project developers haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. When can we expect the SP1, with the OriginalSin patch?"

Good analogy. You are very clever.

Jesus is the "patch" as you call it. He came to fix us. But He doesn't force it, He still allows free will. Repent and ask Me to save you He pleads. Some say yes I want to run as intended. Others say "No I love my decisions", "I must be true to me", "leave me alone while I love and live in my rebellion to your commands".

He sends warnings that you must be patched before total failure occurs but we say "Remind me later" or hit "Ignore", "Delete" or "Deny and don't remind me again".

"And does anyone remember clicking 'agree' on a EULA of any kind? I think I'm gonna go Linux on my next incarnation, at least we can patch our own faults and not owe anything at the end."

Nice thought but the programmers does not allow it. One shot and one shot only. (Read the owners manual)

It doesn't make sense to you?

"I can't tell you how repulsive I find this kind of rhetoric."

What do you mean? What is repulsive? Being accountable to some one?

Is "Ugh" a caveman reference?

I will catch up tomorrow gotta go.
Have a good evening.

@ugly

"Sin doesn't exist, No proof, or evidence, for it"

Do you like to be lied too? Stolen from or cheated on? We show the law is written on our hearts when we use it as our standard to judge how others treat us.

Rom 2:14 -15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I am not being prideful I am just saying what the Bible says to warn you. I am not good. I am a sinner. Never claimed otherwise.

@ARKIE

What rules keep changing? Holding the current law higher is that what you mean? He is being kind to us so that we don't deceive ourselves into thinking we can be good enough.

He examines the our thoughts and motives.

We are all without excuse. We have all violated the law. If we have only broken one we still have a broken covenant on our end not His.

Abraham slept with his servant at his wife's request. That is adultery. David did, Solomon did, many did.

Jesus took it farther and said God says if you eve look with lust that I count that as adultery. So we are all doomed by the law. That is why we need a Savior. None of us are good.

The difference is who saw that they needed to repent.

We are all sinners. Some agree with God and repent. Some use God for gain. Some just deny he is there and do what they want.

What do you mean by extra line breaks?

@Antinous

"Science gets a better reception when it doesn't act like a religion by proclaiming the experimental result of the week to be universal law"

I agree. Wow!

@endstar

"The biggest question is, how can an entity that cares about individual humans design a world so full of suffering?"

The suffering is because of mans sin not Gods design.

"What perverse entity would intentionally place beings with such a strong desire to live among all these parasites, cancer, and murderous clan wars? And why would some humans be spared the suffering of the rest of the world, and instead get to ride around in fancy cars and post comments to boinboing from Mac laptops? Could this possibly have been designed with specific concern for my soul?"

His design was for us not to sin. Since we have sinned He has placed you with access to more information that most people in history let alone in the world, use it.

It says in ACTS 17: 26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, {When you would live} and the bounds of their habitation; {Where you would live} that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

All of us are in the place where we would most likely believe.

As to the part where you say "To my reading of this, if there is a god, that entity must have just set things into motion with a wave of a mathematical wand, and probably doesn't bother itself with the moral consequences."

You are wrong. He is very concerned with the moral consequences. He gave us the 10 commandments to measure our morality against His standard, we all fall short. But He did not leave us without hope.

He is so concerned that the second part of the Trinity became a man, Jesus, and took the penalty we deserved for breaking His moral laws upon Himself. We need to realize we are sinners, people who have broken His laws, and trust Jesus to save us from our sins.

You don't die for something you are not concerned about.

_________________

Einstein, like everyone else at some point and time, rejected God because he loved his sin more than obeying God. He was a known adulterer.

You sure are a judge mental bunch.

I am sure you all assumed he meant the God of the Bible.

So I guess you are saying familiarity breeds contempt?

Be very sure you are right.

I am not being judgmental or saying I own God but He says in His book do not blaspheme Him or His name.

I just want to make sure you know that and and not doing things out of ignorance.

Are you sure He is a myth or does not exist?

You guy are kings of twisting scripture and fearful of
Muslims. You do value life. Thats a start.

Any of you seen Expelled yet?

No but Muslims would. He picks on Christians because they are to love their enemies. What is it Muslims are to do to the infidel?

It is just blasphemy.

If this guy at least wanted to show he was brave and not just irreverent he would say he was Allah.

Terry

Everyone should love that the great cud debate is spilling over here.

gerah is is from garar (1641).

Garar = to drag off roughly; by imp, to bring up the cud (i.e. ruminate); by anal, to saw;-catch, chew, x continuing, destroy, saw

I does not matter what modern Hebrew means by the word.

The common use of the word engine does not have the same meaning it did in the middle ages. So you can't force a modern meaning on a word used in 1450 b.c.

Man, thats what I was going to say!

@PIPENTA

"We're all gonna die. That's the deal. And many take comfort in fairy tales that tell them, oh, no, you won't really die, you'll just move on to another place, a better place, a perfect place."

"But they don't really believe it" I do.

Is life after death a fantasy? Is there no proof?

@ TAKUAN

"By attacking science he directly kills the innocent by denying them stem cell research, birth control, vaccination and any number of things the fanatic get up to"

"stem cell research" What stem cells do you mean? From aborted babies? What about their innocence?

Do you mean cord cells? These have shown the most promising in research and no life is lost. I am with you why is this not promoted?

"birth control" What kind do you mean. One that prevents conception or one that kills once pregnancy has occurred?

"vaccination" Which ones? The ones that cause autism?

@Terry

"gerah" is based on another root word which brought in the other words in the definition I provided. 1641 or 1645 was the Strong's number if my memory is correct.

I saw Mark was baiting me with another Ben stein headline, see you there.

I hope to catch you all on another comment thread.

I have had a great time and have learned much but not lost faith.

Thanks to all who were kind, thoughtful and thought provoking in their comments.

I really do go to church on the weekend. Man cut me some slack.

"Do you really mean aliens are an acceptable conclusion to intelligent design?"

No. But the BB title invoked Ben stein and his movie, right? It was about ID vs. EV (Not really. More lets allow options. Have any of you seen it yet?) You all rail on it (ID) only to say yeah I can accept that?

Who is being disingenuous here? Most if not all of you trash God every chance you get but want to play with His stuff.

I type in short sentences that makes it not fair?

Jack does give me paragraphs that I have read at least three times. I boil Jacks post down to this.

Spontaneous generation is laughable because we can prove it wrong.

Life can come from nonlife if we make that life we are talking about small enough, make the jar big enough and give it infinite amounts of time.

Same thing as spontaneous generation just that the experiment is on a bigger scale. Should have the same results though. If you think differently than that it is faith in time and chance it is not a scientific fact.

Am I wrong?

I have to jet for a bit. I hope to get back before Monday. Have a good weekend all.

"Could be God, could be Martians, could be random chance"

Two of the three is an intelligence is it not?

"Put the right mix of clay and lipids and amino acids in jar and maybe in twenty minutes there's a jar full of replicators."

How often has this been done and verified?

@Jack

"Does life spontaneous generate? You mean like flies in the carcass of a dead rat? Uh. No. That went out over three hundred years ago, when a scientists actually investigated. What kind of a question is that?"

I see this as the same question as "Does life come from nonlife" or spontaneously generate" How am I wrong in thinking this?

By non-life I mean something that is not alive, dead, never had life.

"I don't think that's very farfetched"

How farfetched is it then? It absolutely cannot spontaneously generate but dead things can come to life? Sounds like faith to me, not science.

@Tenn

"Care to explain the fishes, Evidence?"

Made on day five. What do you mean?

Had to leave yesterday for some 'national day of prayer event.

I have not read all the comments yet but I am answering as I go.

The title of the book I used is what I gave.

"Strong's exhaustive concordance of the Bible with Hebrew,Chaldee and greek dictionaries"

That is it's title.

I took it home so I don't remember the Hebrew word but I remember the Strong's numbers.

(In this book each word has a number that relates to the Hebrew or Greek word. The word used will refer you to other words so you can see how it might be used in its context. This book list every time this word is used in the Bible so you can see how to use it properly)

This book is a staple for Preachers because it is a dictionary of mainly the Hebrew and greek words..
I have a King James dictionary too, it defines the words that were used in the time it was written so we can see what the translators were thinking and not impose our meanings.

The Book was written by Mr. Strong. (I took the book home so I don't remember his first name.

I have had this one since I was 18.

@xopher #623

Strong exhaustive concordance of the Bible with Hebrew,Chaldee and greek dictionaries.

Is it just me or has you toned changed?

@xopher

I would like to address your very personal post but I am swamped today and don't want to add to the grief so called Christians have already given you.

So later okay?

"And what about that passage that says a thousand years is like a day to God?"

That verse was not given until the New testament and is in the context of His patience and timelessness, not how He measures time.

There may be a beam in my eye if so I will try (with your help) to get it out.

Questions=

Does life come from nonlife?

Do things increase in complexity when left to themselves?

Does life spontaneous generate?

@jack

"The universe was created to appear old"
Maybe but have you examined any of the young Earth evidence?

The great cud debate.

The Hebrew word used for cud in the passage cited means=

"as scarping the throat, to bring up the cud, by anal, to saw-catch-chew-destroy."

That was the word as the hebrews used it when the reference was written. I think it fits all the animals mentioned in the passage.

@nelson

"When you can pick and choose which bits of the Bible are poetic and which plain-speaking according to what you think you know, but don't extend that privilege to others who know things about the world that you don't"

I think you are on to something here.

You may/probably do know more than I do on any given science.

Here is how I see the passages I quoted before. (Circle of the Earth, hanging the world on nothing....)

1. I do not see these as predictive. They were just quoted or given by the author of the given passage.

2. In light of what we have discovered we see it was right even before we knew it was.

3. You could see more scientific truths in the Bible since you know more. (I only listed a small sampling)

4. Many discoveries have been made by taking a claim and applying it to see if it is true. Paths of the sea, surgical procedures and sanitary steps to name just a few.

5. Apply what you know to it and see what you find, it will pobably put you at the top of that given field.

The Genesis account can not allow for long ages no matter how we want to torture it.

Day meant a twenty four hour day.

For redundancy God measures time for us in the passage so we cannot get confused. The morning and the evening were the fifth day. That is the same way we measure a day today (a morning and a evening).

We still have a seven day week not long ages counted for a day.

The Genesis account says death (of Man and animals) came after the fall of man not millions of years before producing man.

That is why evolution is rejected and it is illogical, meaning nothing gets better by itself. To use a phrase "You can't pull yourself up by your boot straps".

@jack

Here is the biggest thing you guys here at BB have taught me.

Evolution as the general masses understands it is far different than evolutionists hold to.

Do you think this is a true statement?

@xopher

"Marjorie" I don't know her but I do know that good people who do good things don't go to Heaven.

"God is going to say to her "So, didn't buy my creation story, eh? To Hell with you!"?"

That is not a condition for salvation (Believing in the 6 day creation story) . Do you want to stand before a Holy God and say to Him I thought you were lying?

Hebrews 6:18: “[I]t is impossible for God to lie.”

Romans 3:4: “Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.”

@ Terry

"As for your (rude as all get out) challenge to Xopher about salvation"

I know peoples souls are personal. I did not mean to be rude but I am used to addressing a group of people all at once and they expect me to use that language. I forgot my audience and I humbly apologize for seeming rude.

I am not here to be rude or flamebait as you call it.

You said "I am bearing with you. If I wasn't, you'd know; trust me."

Because you "loved Mercy, did Justice and walked Humbly with my God, loving my neighbor as myself, and cursing no one;" right? ;0)

"Here's a definition you've not answered: How do you decide which bits are plain, and which are poetic.

Plainly is still the best way I can describe it.

Is it post modernism I am dealing with? Where words mean whatever I want them to? Sounds like we are pointing the same finger at each other but try this example on for size.

If someone says they are pulling you leg do you look down and say "No your not."? This is what I mean by plainly reading the Bible. You read a long and it says "The Sun sets" . If it is in the Bible you cry "wrong!" the Earth rotates the Sun it does not set. Do you shout at the weatherman we he mentions sunrise and sunset times or do you understand it plainly? Clunky but do you get what I am trying to say?

@Agent86

"BoingBoing has much more to offer than a simple religious debate, and we'd love to see you participate :)"

Thanks for the invite. I have read BB for about 4 years and only recently saw something I wanted to comment on and signed up. I didn't think it took though ( I was waiting for some reply in my email) but saw this Ben Stein slam and found when I logged in it worked! Lucky you.

I am trying to catch up.

I left my Hebrew book in my car which has the info for the mighty cud debate so I will get it at lunch and enlighten you all. :0)

I say a rabbit eating his partially digested food is the same thing as a cow coughing up partially digested food in its mouth again.

@XOPHER

I will look into the cud issue more after church tonight.

"I didn't say I rejected God. I said I rejected salvation."

Why would you reject His salvation?

"THEY say Christ is still is Christ" Oh I thought that was you.

"but you refuse to use the words and understandings of the people who write on evolution"

I have learned a lot here. But what this group says it holds to as evolution and the people I meet in person do not agree much with what you all agree on. So it is hard for me. I keep trying to put it in my words to see if I am getting it. Can't you tell?

"you have refused to answer any of the questions about how you pick and choose"

I have tried. It seems simple and plain to me but I am having trouble conveying it to you. Please don't take that as being evasive.

"You won't answer questions about your definitions"

Which ones do you want defined? Bare with me I read one thing then another and comment on the last one I read all while working.

"but rather in prostlytising us about the rightness of creationism; in whatever form he prefers [which seems to be YE ID)."

I am dense or tired to understand this, please explain.

@jack

Thanks for the explanation but.....

"No, the traits aren't necessarily there already."

But they could already be there? If they were already there is it not evolution as you describe it?

"Are you saying that observable fact is wrong?" No.

1. I would and do dispute that they don't agree with what is observable .

People can eat their feces and it doesn't mean they (as a species) are reese's pieces feces eaters (chew their cud). (Sorry I could not resist the rhyme.)

It just means that they are sick. Like vomit eating dogs.

2. We narrowed down how to group kinds. So now we must retro employ that meaning on history and their understanding at the time.

3. I am glad it (your rejection of God) is not based on something that trivial.

4. If you call it (the Bible) a poetic myth what do you reject/oppose about it? Especially if Christ is still Christ.

I hope I answered your question

@XOPHER

Lets back up a second.

1. Glad you are back
2. Your checkmate is like me asking some one a "Do you still beat your wife?" question.

Say the Bible is wrong in two places.= Bats Rabbits. (I say it is not)
And I am right (play along with me) about God and judgement.

You are willing to stand before God on judgement day and say I rejected you and the salvation you offered because rabbits don't chew their cud?

@ARKIZZLE

So you want my proof for the virgin birth of Christ?

Why it had to be and texts that support it?

Ahhh I meant "more experienced" not made. Dooooooh

@ARKIZZLE
"I'm not sure if you are saying that in 1600, young women tended to be inexperienced sexually or that the meaning of the word 'virgin' in 1600 was explicitly unsexual."

I do not have my library with me at work to define almah or if that was the greek word used. But they (young maids) were probably made "experianced" in 1600 than a jewish girl in "0" would have been. Think of their culture and laws.

Off the top of my head I think the definition as you are referring to is in a prophecy in Isaiah about the virgin birth and not the word used in describing Mary in the New Testament. Not that it makes that much of a difference.

@ANDYGATES

So the survival of the fittest?

Is the stronger surviving evolution? Are the traits not there already?

@ARKIZZLE

The Bible (each specific book) was written in a place and time, using their words and meanings. We are to read the words with their meaning not ours imposed upon them.

A young maid/woman was a virgin when translated in 1611 and in . That cannot be said today.

The Ekklesia is the called out ones. God has called out to the world. The ones who respond to the call (called out ones, sheep that hear His voice) are an assembly or a church.

Back to the lizards.

So Lamarckism is wrong. Stronger jaws developed by chewing leaves can not be passed on to offspring.

Or wanting to chew and digest food because of environmental pressures cannot be passed on to their offspring.

Is that not what you are excited about with these lizards? Lamarckism?

I understand that you are all sitting around giddily waiting for their DNA report. What if the DNA is the same? What happened on this island to these lizards then?

@khatru
The NIV is a paraphrase not a translation.
It is like eating food someone else chewed on and digested.
(Cud?) :0)

The NIV is a bible for baby christians and nonchristians.

KJV is a word for word translation. (But I am not KJV only if you are aware of that debate)

@jack
God could classify a bat a million ways you would never think of but as you put it He was telling shepherds and mostly uneducated people.

Thanks a lot xopher

I just did a quick google for the definition of "chew the cud".

Here is the first one I came to.
"to chew the food over again, as a cow"

My kids showed rabbits in 4h this (eating their droppings) is counted as chewing their cud. I did not just make it up on the spot.

I can wait until the next evolution proof boingboing puts up to talk some more but don't say I wasn't honest.

I been insulted often but that one stings from you.

I can agree to disagree agreeably. I have enjoyed all the debate and generally like all of you.

TAKUAN operates in a realm all his own but now and then even his things made a little sense but if we bowl I am not going to be alone with him.

"This is something that many creationists claim can't happen, as they seem to think a mutation is something that pops into existence a completely new gene that grows a third arm or something silly like that."

We see third arms often or five legged cows and two headed snakes. No new information same information gone wrong.

Sounds like adaptation and not evolution.

Develop = To a go through a process of natural growth or exercise. Timmy developed his biceps be lifting weights.

No new information. No evolution.

DEU 14: Of all clean birds ye shall eat...And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Just because you classify them one way now does not mean they have always been that way.

LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

A rabbit eats its droppings, this is eating food that it has already been partially digested i.e.. chewing its cud.

LEV 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
LEV 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
LEV 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

Four legged beetles?! I suppose they have at least four...

This is a new one to me but on the surface I would say they ate them all.

ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Isaiah is poetry for being bigger than the Earth. He didn't see them all from the vantage point of the hill but Satan used his devilish voodoo. He is a spirt being and operates differently than you or I do.

JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Foundations or no? Whoops.

You are telling me you don't think the Earth has foundation?

Back to the lizards.
So you/the article is saying the lizards "could not" eat plants before being on this island. It was impossible for them.
But now through added information in their DNA they now can?

No lizards had big heads or could bite hard before their DNA had added this information.

Is this correct?

@xopher

Moving water Mixed with dirt naturally stratifies. Get a jar with dirt in it and shake it and see what happens. (Feel free to add this to the next MAKE mag.)

Fish did not drown but were buried. It was not just rain that flooded the Earth but the fountains of the deep flooded it as much as anything if not more.

The deep drilling that Russia is doing finds this virgin salt water in the Earth.

Was there salt water then? Was it as salty as it is now? We know the ocean gets saltier every year. By the way why is it not saltier if it is millions of years old? Jack will cite this for me I am sure.

All the fish adapted to the water they found themselves living in. Thats good design.

Job 26:7 (written 3500 years ago): "He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing."

The Bible claimed that the earth freely floated in space. Science then thought that the earth sat on a large animal. We now know that the earth has a free float in space.

Hebrews 11:3 (written 2000 years ago): "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

The Bible claims that all creation is made of invisible material. Science then was ignorant of the subject. We now know that the entire creation is made of invisible elements called "atoms."

Leviticus 17:11 (written 3000 years ago): "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

The Scriptures declare that blood is the source of life. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled", and many died because of the practice. We now know that blood is the source of life. If you lose your blood, you will lose your life.

Genesis 1:1,3 (written 3,450 years ago): "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth . . . And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power and motion. "In the beginning (time) God created (power) the Heaven (space) and the earth (matter) . . . And the Spirit of God moved (motion) upon the face of the waters."

Psalm 8:8: "And the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas."
What does the Bible mean by "paths" of the seas?

The sea is just a huge mass of water, how then could it have "paths?" Man discovered the existence of ocean currents in the 1850's, but the Bible declared the science of oceanography 2,800 years ago. Matthew Maury (1806- 1873) is considered to be the father of oceanography. He was bedridden during a serious illness and asked his son to read a portion of the Bible to him. While listening, he noticed the expression "paths of the sea." Upon his recovery, Maury took God at His word and went looking for these paths. His book on oceanography is still considered a basic text on the subject and is still used in universities.

Job 38:12, 14, (written 3500 years ago) God Himself says: "Have you commanded the morning since your days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It [the earth] is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment."

Modern science has come to understand that the earth's rotation on its axis is responsible for the sun's rising and setting. The picture here is of a vessel of clay being turned or rotated upon the potter's wheel -- an accurate analogy of the earth's rotation.

Genesis 2:1 (after creation): "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

The Hebrew word used here is the past definite tense for the verb "finished," indicating an action completed in the past, never again to occur. The creation was "finished" -- once and for all. That is what the First Law of Thermodynamics says. It states that neither matter nor energy can be either created or destroyed. There is no "creation" ongoing today. It is "finished" exactly as the Bible states.

Chapter one is the retelling of creation. Chapter two God brings the animals past Adam to name them not two stories thrown together.

Isaiah 40:12 (written 2,800 years ago): "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand . . ."

We are told that God has measured the waters and set a proper amount of water on the earth. Modern science has proved that the quantity of water on earth is just enough for our needs. If the sea became three meters deeper, the water would absorb all the carbon dioxide and nitrogen, and no creature could live any longer.

Job 26:7 (written 3500 years ago): "He stretches out the north over the empty place . . ."

Less than 200 years ago, through the advent of massive telescopes, science learned about the great empty space in the north.

Isaiah 40:22 (written 2,800 years ago): "It is He that . . . stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in."

Scientists are beginning to understand that the universe is expanding, or stretching out. At least seven times in Scripture we are clearly told that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain.

@ Jake

"Say I pick up Moby Dick and assume it's all true, why shouldn't I?"

Does it claim to be true? The Bible claims to be true and it claims to be the word of God.

"Does it bug you at all that you're taking literally a work which has been translated numerous times?"

Nope. If God can make the world in six days can't He protect His book from errors? I think so.

"Pretend I'm an evolutionary biologist who was raised Hindu, why should I buy the idea that your book (younger than our books) is literal truth?"

Which one claims to be true and then backs up what it claims? The Bible's history is accurate when examined, ask Sir Walter Ramsey. The Bible tells events before they happen. It also has more copies than any other book of antiquity to see if it has changed.

Xopher

"I'm trying to give you a clear idea of what we believe, not trying to convince you that it's true" Same here.

"my Christian friend Marjorie says? She says "the stories in the Bible are God's parables. You read them for the lesson they teach, not as history."

I am sad for her.

"Speaking of history" God gave the early history of the Earth to Moses as a way of introducing Himself, in a sense. The Bible is not a history book but as with science when it speaks of historical things it is true.

"So all your "debating" is really just disguised prosthelitizing" I didn't think it was disguised but think of where we are. I have people who really believe in evolution and who can explain to me what they believe and talk with them. You get to talk to someone who really believes the Bible and ask any question to me and see the world through my eyes. I don't get the feeling you all hate me and I hope you don't feel I hate you. This is rare indeed. Sadly some have quit.

@TAKUAN
Would you like to go bowling?

Lets all go see Ben Stein's movie and then go bowling. How does that sound?

"The Bible cannot be used to prove itself." Thats like saying we can't look in the White House to prove the president lives there. Silly.

"leading you all on, you know that by now right?" For what?

I am a fake what?

@ ILL LICH

"In fact some stalagmites and stalactites take more time than your young Earth theory allows" Like the ones under the Lincoln memorial or under man made bridges?

"dog breed/you are trying to equate humans with god I assume?"

In a sense. We are forcing the traits we want but from terriers to St. Benards they are still dogs, the same species or kind. Like Xopher's elephants if we left them alone they would go back to being elephants some with and some without tusks and dogs would be mutts again which are much stronger and healthier than pure bred dogs because they have all the traits/variability back in them. All the information was there for us to force the breed, we didn't add anything, we suppressed things. Elephants lost tusks, they didn't gain new information and they never became hippo's. You must all agree we can not breed dogs to become nondogs can we?

"(unless you are saying that god acts through evolution.) " No. He put the information in all the animals to adapt to their environment they didn't create it on their own or with magic time and long ages. [I learned to use magic from you guys ;0)]

"the Bible comes first, so no matter WHAT science proves, if it ain't in the Bible it's untrue."

Yes the Bible comes first.

"No matter what science proves" If it is good science it will agree with the Bible. What science says is true today might be laughed at tomorrow, read history. The Bible is not a science book but when it speaks of things that would fall under the science category it is correct. (I promise to post some examples of that today)

"if it ain't in the Bible it's untrue" No this is to broad of a statement. The Bible does not speak of the space shuttle and it is really there. Some might be that blind and feel for me because I have to deal with them too.

"What do they say? "Fossils were put there by Satan to test our faith in God!""

I am glad you said they and not that I said it. Fossils show me that death is coming and I better prepare for it. They are also there for discovery and science.

Maybe things are in the strata they are in for different reasons than science holds to now. Maybe fish are lower in the strata because they were buried first (closer to the bottom). Maybe birds are last because they could fly longer before succumbing to the flood and are on top with other creature in between sorted as they drowned and were buried? Is there more than one way to look at things? If science is arranging things in order how about an order like this? Or is it dismissed because it just can't be, it is to close to the Bible and must be dismissed?

Shouldn't science be looking at it a thousand and one ways and then choose the best one?

I wish I could type. I hope you can make out my bumbling.

@ILL LICH

"jumped the shark"

I love happy days references.

In regards to the Australian aborigine providing scientific proof of his culture's creation myth question. Hmmm.

I first would measure his origin story in light of scripture first science second.

I have to go for the day but please check back tomorrow for the Bible verses I promised. God evening and God bless.

@JACK LECOU

"you appear ignorant at best. If you continue to repeat them, or fire off one disposable claim after another in scattershot fashion, you run a serious risk of appearing to be arguing in bad faith. It is a tactic many of us have seen all to often from creationists."

Ignorance is bliss they say and I do not want to argue in bad faith. I will apologize for the others who have done so.

Can I let you in on a secret? When Christians have what they think they know challenged they get mad, yell something, slam and bang things and run away. Some evolutionists throw in cursing as well.

This is an old post and can stop reading whenever you want. What draws you back?

"rebuttal"

They don't give feed back and if I misinterpret it who is there to correct me?

@ XOPHER

I suspect you are a teacher.

Can you name a good mutation for me?

Are dogs a good example of species breeding? (Loaded question warning!)

Again if your not a teacher you should be and it I am seeing what your saying but I have flags go up every where when I read it.

@ Terry Karney

Thanks for the dialogue.

Concerning Mormons. They say you can know the book of Mormon is true by reading it and getting burning in the bosom. I referenced that and caused the confusion.

I say I read the Bible plainly as I am sure you have read. I haven't answered the moderator because I was not sure what she was asking to be honest but with your help I think I understand.

I can sum it up in one word. Context.

You cite a perfect example. Jesus is using a metaphor and it is obvious in the context. The bible tells Noah's story as historical narrative. Read them as they are written or plainly.

Some things in the old testament are changed in the new testament or are done away with.

Help me out.

What is a troll, trollish or trolling and flamebaiting?

I think I know what you mean but I want to make sure.

@ILL LICH

"Neither you nor I were there, nor are there any witnesses we know of, although you contend God witnessed it and you use the Bible as proof"

You understand my view point well.

Can I give you sampling of some Bible/science verses? (Disclaimer: Christian science is a cult and that is not what I mean) I mean how the two harmonize?

Did I get the perpetual motion answer right?

Punctuated Equilibrium by Stephen Jay Gould

Please correct me if I am wrong but Isn't Punctuated Equilibrium where things just appear without evolving? Was it not known earlier as the hopeful monster? A alligator give birth to a duck or something?

Isn't he also the one who talked about irreducible complexity?

XOPHER tangled sentences are my specialty.

I reread what I post and sometimes I can't guess what I was thinking. Maybe I should take my mittens off.

EVIDENCE's razor = "All other things being equal, the simple-minded solution is the best."

I can deal with that. Make it simple for me.

"here you are debating a majority of evolution-believers, so perhaps in order to more forcefully argue your points you would be wise to learn science as we see it"

I am trying and have learned some about what you mean be evolution. I thank you for it. I know I am the odd man out.

The way I understand evolution as you/commenters see it is= All the stuff needed for life was here, you don't know where it came from and don't care to know. But because all this stuff was here it collected itself together. Very small and simple at first but as necessity reared its head, changes occurred in what ever it was that had become organized. It changed its DNA put new information there and made itself adapt to it needs at the time.

That what I can remember without going back and reading it all. Is this right?

Do I believe a perpetual-motion device is possible?

No. But I enjoy the videos on BoingBoing.

@TENN

"What about mayflies, locusts"

The Bible says they only took things that breathed with nostrils on the ark.

"Gen 7:22
All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life"

Insects do not breathe that with nostrils. Probably for the reasons you sate and more. They could have easily survived on mats of dead things floating around and the ones in the ground just stayed there.

Also you attribute things to me that I didn't say. Though I do despise the Westboro Baptist Church and anything they stand for.

"Believing in the existence of something is determined by your upbringing"

Most of you say you were brought up Christian but now are not so that is not it.

"many a concept seems at odds with the good and forgiving God Christians tout for converts"

Like what?

@377
Read it again I said I am not a Mormon for the reasons you state and many others.

If you believe in evolution don't blame God for it.

@XOPHER

"You seem to be saying that the lack of fossils all over the world means evolution can't be true, but that the presence of them proves there was a global flood. This is just plain wacky."

Lack of transitional fossils not fossils in general. Please tell me you understand what I am saying?

I do think some of my/our problem is that we do talk past each other. People with the same world view as I have know what I mean when I say what I say and I am sure the same can be said for your camp. It seems hard for us to communicate and is frustrating for both sides.

General info for accuracy in all the slams thrown my way.

I am 42 and not in junior high I actually graduated in the top 10% of my class in high school in the sate of Indiana.

None of you would count my college as real because evolution was not taught.

I am a Pastor of a small church in the same town I grew up in and I work full time in the graphic arts industry.

I have been married for 21 years. So I am straight and not anyones boyfriend.

The only thing that I have done that would interest any of you is a rock (for lack of a better word) that my family found.

It is a fulgurite that we found in our yard. Indiana University, Indiana state museum, IUPUI and a few other colleges and clubs have some of it in their collections. (I wish I looked like the one in Sweet Home Alabama because I would be rich but most of the cool green glass is on the inside)

I have never lived under a bridge, or been intentionally stupid or deceptive in my comments. I am serious I am not playing.

I am sarcastic and according to my wife I am a jerk sometimes but what can I say. God is not done with me yet.

I am truly sorry for how people have treated you in the name of Jesus and I hope I haven't been a wedge to drive any of you further from Him.

"fossils only form under special circumstances" I clicked on the link provided and here is the first point.

"Fossils of hard mineral parts (like bones and teeth) were formed as follows: Some animals were quickly buried after their death (by sinking in mud, being buried in a sand storm, etc.).
Over time, more and more sediment covered the remains."

I agree fossil form under special circumstances exactly like the ones listed above.

Think of every fossil you have seen. I would say the majority if not all of them fit the description "buried by sinking in mud, being buried in a sand storm, etc."

Sounds like a global flood to me.

If there was a global flood what would you expect to find?
Millions of buried dead things on a global scale?

Occam's razor = All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.

I do find fossil most every time I dig in my back yard and it reminds me God judged the world once and He has promised to to it again, next time with fire.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Great posts.

I am not forcing anything on anyone I thought we were debating, asking question and searching for answers.

It is hard for both sides not to paint with broad brushes.

I am off for worship on Sunday I look forward to continuing with you all on Monday.

#290 ill lich

Thanks for the descriptive post and illustrations.
You said
“it seems you don't understand entropy either”
“Entropy takes over in a closed system, and the Earth is NOT a closed system as long as the sun is adding energy to our planet”.

The Moon slips away and the Earth rotation still slows. The Sun that is adding energy and it destroys my shingles, bleaches and cracks cement, bakes our skin to cause cancer, it drys out and rots all fabrics just to name a few things.

Is there some other Law that covers this?

Also
“IF the Bible is completely true, THEN evolution is a lie.” The is what I believe. This still allows for micro evolution (science’s terms not mine) which is variation within a species or kind.

“You are apparently satisfied that the Bible is 100% accurate “
I am. I would gladly discuss this with you and others. You can examine it and see how valid it is. I am no Mormon so I am not talking about reading it and getting a burning assurance in your bosom. I am talking about the same tests applied to any book of antiquity. Christianity is a faith but not blind faith, it is reasonable or I would not believe it.

“everything was built on too many shaky assumptions and unquestioned traditions”
I apologize for any weak or false Christian who said not to question things. Truth fears no question. Truth endures.

Caution is wisdom. Examine, test and decide.

To throw out God is very bad science.
It is like the police saying find the killer but he can’t be a white man.

What if it is a white man?

All your searching will leave you empty handed with out answers because you limited the possibilities at the start.

What are all of you afraid of?

@TENN #289

Thanks for the links to the picture and the article.
More not so human to human skulls = I could take the population at the local Wal-mart at any given time, line them up from small to large and have more variation than these.
Why isn't there a flowchart?= From the article- The second reason for gaps is that most fossils undoubtedly have not been found. After millions of years of death shouldn’t we all hit one when we dig in the yard?
Human transitional fossils = Lining things up does not make it true. Lining up a spoon then a spork and then a fork is that science? Would we not need DNA to show their relation to each other and that new information has been added?

@TENN #285

I forgot to put up my sarcasm alert.

My point is who is in charge of what we need and when we get it?

Do we stretch our necks until we grow? Thats not evolution (see earlier posts). \

Small incremental changes in our DNA until we have what we need?
Who decides what we need?
Who decides what changes need to be made to get to that point?
Where are all the transitional fossils showing these changes proving that this is good science and how things are done?

@Tenn

"We evolve to fit the circumstances"

When is the next meeting on what we should evolve next?

I put in for flight.

Quotes from vorpalsword 249
“I know you keep saying that the lizards didn't evolve, they just grew, or adapted to the environment. Perhaps in this case you are right-- we won't know until they do the DNA tests.”

Lamarck experiments“stretch its neck from this constant exercise”

“they cut the tails off mice and bred them, to see if their offspring would be tailless”

“The genes will, however, differ from parent to offspring if there is a mistake in the DNA transcription, and that is how mutations and variations happen.”

“I doubt that this will change your mind all of a sudden, but now do you at least understand what evolution is and is not?”

Yes this is what I want and all of you should want too. DNA that shows new information not bigger headed lizards with stronger jaws. This sounds like the Lamarck bait and switch. Say one thing while meaning another. Like showing all the proof for micro evolution and then saying it must (without evidence) add up to macro evolution that is a leap of faith. Bait and switch. One is not the other, that why they have different names.

My favorite book outside the Bible is Carl Sagan's "Contact". Because at the end he, through the main character, says that it is his faith he can't prove it. Thats honesty.

“You can't dismiss an argument by saying "I suspect that's not true" but not offering any real proof.”
As you said “We won't know until they do the DNA tests”.

You all have faith the DNA will have new information I believe it will not (odds are in my favor) and chances are we will never hear any of the follow up testing at least not on BoingBoing it will be buried at the end of some journal no one will read.

Same thing over and over.
Big head lines at what we found or know and pepper the article with evolutions words of faith, maybe, we suppose, we think, could be, possibly, could have been, our theory is and might be. (To name a few). Then when science is done and things are known it falls in to obscurity. (Think Mars rock).

@SophiesChoice

Thank you for being the only one to answer my question. Mountains of evidence must be smaller than a mole hill.

Insects. You are right they are useful but annoying.

I believe God made the world perfect. Man sinned and the good systems have all broken down.
Before sin there was no death and I would says no annoying insects. Not that they weren’t there, He created them on day 6 (the Bible calls them creeping things) but that they wouldn’t have been annoying.

God uses them for examples for us in the Bible.

Pro 6:6-8 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, Provideth her meat in the summer, [and] gathereth her food in the harvest.

I know of people who have become Christians because of the complexity found in the insect world.

So your dislike of bugs is the most compelling argument that drove you into the arms of evolution?

Thanks again for opening up.

@xopher & Ill lich

Thank you very much for clearing up my misuse and humbly thank you for your kindness and patience in regards to the Moons phases.

I wish I could comment on all posts and I apologize for not being able too but life keeps interfering with commenting. I am not avoiding I would truly love to round table with all of you on every point. A lot of insightful stuff and good questions and some weirdness that I guess I miss the humor on.

@sophieschoice
“I suspect, however, that if this world had say, a lavender sky and two moons you would find that beautiful, too. We all would.”

You are right but think about this and one of you math whizzes figure the odds of this occurring.

We evolve on a planet with food we can eat and tastes good, we make an eye that can see in an atmosphere where it is possible to see. We can breath the air, drink the water, it is the right temperature on and on.

If we landed on Mars and found a tent with these same conditions we would look for the Being that had set up the tent so perfectly for us. But when it is placed on a global, no universal scale, and we say it just happened?

The Universe is not perfect because of mans sin and longs to be restored. Sin brought in death and disease.

Rom 8:22 “ the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together.”

Does science contradict itself?

Entropy is a known science. In simple terms the way I understand it it says . The universe is dying of heat loss and things left to themselves run down. (Correct me if this is wrong.)

This rule/Law of entropy is in place.

Yet evolutions runs counter to this. Does not evolution say "Things left to themselves gain information and grow in complexity"?

How do you justify the two?

The Bible agrees with this known Law of entropy.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

The Moon slips away, the Earths rotation slows down, stars burn out.

Explane.

xopher
Thanks for the real dialogue. I appreciate your patience. You could call me a name. laugh (HA ha ha HA) and then avoid any topic mentioned, so I thank you.

The Lunar eclipse also goes with my point. Our shadow is the perfect size. The trifecta Earth, Moon and Sun all appear to be same size for these events to occur. What are the chances of this happening? Any other planet in our solar system able to do this?

"All other phases have the Moon's bright and dark parts showing partially. Note that the side toward the Sun is always lit."

Honest question

What is keeping the other part of the moon from being lit?

Evidence @251: That isn't how the phases of the moon work.

Thats not the Earths shadow on the Moon?

Teresa/Moderator

You asked questions about the fiber content of my clothes, If I trim my beard, and my Pizza preferences.

First I am a Christian and not Jewish. The laws you are questioning me about were addressed to the nation Israel for a particular time and place but in essence I do hold to them, here is how.

I don't wear a Slipknot or Marilyn Manson T-shirts. The mixing of fabrics was something people in their day did as acts of worship to pagan gods.

Same with the beard deal and mixing their foods. God wanted them to be set apart a peculiar people, same for me today. (Let the Peculiar jokes begin!) I am to be different so were they.

I purposely said I read the Bible plainly not literally. If the Bible plainly is poetry, descriptive or uses modes of speech (Sun setting-raining cats and dog etc.) I take it for what the author intended.

I believe Jesus is God and He specifically mentioned- Adam and Eve, Noah, Sodom and Gomorra, Jonah and 6 day Creation.

He would know so I believe Him.

Now He encourages us to study His creation. See how it runs like a finely tuned clock. Admire the eco system He put in place the beauty in that is here for our pleasure and His goodness. That we have a Moon at just the right distance to be the same size as the Sun so that eclipses are possible and we are able to study the corona. Also that our shadow is the same size as the Moon so we have the phases to mark time with. What are the chances of that just happening?

We should marvel at the fact that our solar system is where it is in the Universe so that we can study the Universe. What if we had stars so close we couldn't see out to observe? I am glad He put Saturn and Jupiter where He did. They act as shields for our Earth and draw in asteroids that would harm us and the Moon is a good last defense. I thank Him and marvel at His works.

What advances could be made if we looked for design in the universe?

Takeshi thank you for your kind correction.

Teresa/Moderator
I will reread yours post and do my best to answer.

I was not forcing religion, I am pointing towards Creationism.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

First of all, thank you all for answering the questions I raised about the lizards in the article talked about. [See I appreciate sarcasm and use it too. ;0)]

I noticed when I talk about lizards you guys want to talk about God. I thought the general cry was lets talk about the subject at hand and now you guys avoid it?

I have read quotes attesting to the "mountains of evidence" and "all the science" and such but I am simple minded, as many of you have noted, so could one of you give me the one thing that absolutely proved to you that evolution was rock solid? One thing that I could search with you to see how convincing the solid evidence is? I can't swallow the whole elephant please give me a small bite to chew on.

Sarcasm alert!

"What kind of just and caring God, who is all-knowing and all-powerful, would allow infants to be raped to death on a near-daily basis?"

Natural selection? Survival of the fittest? Preservation of the race? Removing the competition for food? Blind chance? Animal instinct form our animal ancestors? Chaos? No reason, we just die and go into a hole in the ground? Life is over and thats it?

Did I miss any of the answers you cling too?

The Bible says its because men are sinful, evil, and depraved. We have violated Gods laws and it shows itself in ugly ways. I wish God would stop those law breakers but wait. That would mean He would have to stop us all,including me, right here, right now. Because we all violate Gods law daily. I am thankful for the long suffering of God and I trust in His justice. None of it (law breaking) goes unseen and will be justly rewarded. Do as I have done. Repent and ask Jesus to save you today friends.

@ swampdog

The bible says they were on the ark for around a year not just 40 days.

It is feasible and does not take great faith to believe it.

I am not trashing anyone but most Bible knowledge on here is misrepresented. Are most you biblically illiterate or have never really consider it?

Not throwing a rock just asking a question.

"You're not offering a more compelling explanation for the phenomena, I hate to tell you."

Yes I am. We, and all creatures, are fearfully and wonderfully made.

The lizards were made with the ability to eat insects or vegetation just like you and I are.

Common design from a common designer.

You wanted to talk about the article. So I point out points to ponder and you bury your heads and say I am stamping my feet. I am just passionate.

If you all decide you want to be left alone I will leave you alone until the next article on evolution.

Let me know.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"The transplanted lizards adapted to their new environment"
Adaptation is not evolution it's just good design by the Creator.

"were not built to digest a vegetarian diet"
Who built them? God? I think so.

"developed cecal valves—muscles between the large and small intestine—that slowed down food digestion in fermenting chambers" I suspect that they had these valves and now these same valves are bigger by use.

"They evolved an expanded gut to allow them to process these leaves," "bite harder, powered by a head that had grown longer and wider"
A bigger belly is evolution? If it had never had a belly and grew one now that is new information being added. Same thing if it grew a head and jaws. Weak, so very, very weak.

Did you all not notice this paragraph.

"What could be debated, however, is how those changes are interpreted—whether or not they had a genetic basis and not a "plastic response to the environment," said Hendry, who was not associated with the study."

This closing sentence too.

"All of this might be evolution," Hendry said. "The logical next step would be to confirm the genetic basis for these changes."

Might be! Might be evolution! I thought you all "knew" something!

There will never be a follow up study cited.

#194 For as Jesus said, "Let he who lives in a glass house throw the first stone."

Jesus did not say that.

I am a creationist.

ID is a step in the right direction for scientists who actually do science. ID is a trail that will lead you to creationism. That is what most of you just do not want to allow.

How does evolution explain things that are irreducibly complex?

Creationism fears no science but encourages it.

Science be definition is having knowledge not theory. Work with theories, say they are theories

*****
The Earth is about 6,000 years old, is that young? Young or old is comparative. Compared to millions of years it is young, compared to us it is ancient.

******

I believe Noah's Ark is true. Why do you deny a global flood on a world that is covered with water yet insist on a flood on Mars that has no water?

The Troll is back.

I really do go to church on Wednesday and twice on Sunday so I did not just bail.

@#125
Ben's movie never presented a view really he just asked for open debate.

You need to see it before you repeat what others have said.

On evolution and the holocaust.

Stein, a jew, could have played the Hitler killed the Jews card but did not.

He showed that Hitler, and his belief in evolution, killed Germans who did not measure up to his standards so he could speed up evolution. He only visited a Jewish monument before he left.

Like it or not this is what Darwin was abdicating in his book.
Most of you say Darwin is not about origins yet that is the title of his book!

Read the title, On the origin of species by means of natural selection or the preservation of favored races in the struggle for life.

It is supposed to be about origins and favored races.

Who ever can show they are the oldest race wins.

Who is the favored race? Africans, French, British or Japanese?

Who can "prove" that is the superior race and can lord it over the rest of the world.

Dangerous stuff.

Got to go for now.

I am going to church I hope you are interested enough to examine the evidence to where it leads.

You claim mountains of evidence and point me to microscopic levels.

Search for the truth.

God bless you all.

#94 It is God's word. Read it and see.

I read it plainly. The fact of the Earth being round was in the Bible before science discovered it.

Isa 40:22 [It is] He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Science and the Bible are not opposed to each other.

Truth is truth. Theory is theory and will change.

God does not change He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

#91 I spontaneously generated. ;0)

When one lacks confidence just curse and call names.

That is so compelling to your arguments.

#73 Words have meaning. I use words with definitions you would find in Webster's dictionary. I don't pour new meaning into them as you apparently are.

#74 Does the pope believe the Bible? I have never heard him preach it and rarely quotes it.

You guys are fleshing out the movie "Expelled" no debate just shut up, be quite, you unlearned flunky. What name have I called you? What are you all so afraid of? Truth?

#57 Homo erectus to homo sapiens; micro or macro? Answer Fiction, a drawing is not evidence.

#59 He is God. Col 1:16 For by Him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:

#63 You are confusing Christianity with Islam. I only say something because I don't want any of you to go to hell.

#72 and others. I am not joking. I knew one of you would run to the spaghetti monster and start slacking while riding your pink unicorn so I tried to cut you off at the pass, so to speak.

#40 G.park It was still you, you didn't evolve you aged.

We had a common ancestor? Man and apes?

I believe we had a common ancestor = Adam not an ape.

Believing we had an common ancestor means you belive well all came from a rock that was rained on for millions of years.

More faith than I have.

The fossil record shows us that a lot of animals died in a flood and are buried around the world.

Examine the evidence prepare yourself for your judgement coming.

He promised before and left evidence everywhere(Noah's flood-fossils-oil...), it is coming again and you know it.

Thats why you love science that changes what it knows from year to year.

Repent and cry out for Jesus to save you because the flying spaghetti monsters noodly appendage is to short to save you.

Examine yourself with the ten commandments.

Ever lied? Stolen? Coveted? Blasphemed God?

If so you need to repent and trust Jesus today.

The fossil record shows no transitional forms Darwin himself said this would disprove his theory.

Developing a muscle is called exercise #16.

I would say true evolution would be the change of one species into another species. Dog to a cat.

No silly rabbit they can't make air conditioners because they are and have always been lizards.

See Ben Stein's movie and hear Richard Dawkins say aliens put us here. Someone should tell him that that is a form of intelligent design.

What do you mean by evolution?

Micro evolution, which is change within the species or aka adaptability. Like already having guts, a head and the knowledge of how to bite. No new information just variations with the information already there. This is viewed all the time and is a sign of good design. Like heat and air conditioning in my car I am prepared to adjust to where I am.

While macro-evolution is the addition of new traits or a transition to a new species. This has never been seen and belongs in the faith not science category.