My last post for the night:

Antinous:
"You can only have peace when you stop shoving your own ideas down the throats of the rest of the world."

Original Article:
"Authorities in Afghanistan have sentenced a 23-year-old journalism student to death for having downloaded and shared copies of a report criticizing the oppressive treatment of women in some Islamic societies."

Freedom of speech. Human rights. Some ideas are are worth disturbing the peace over.

Heh - you're right Dr. T, I think I'm lumping you in too much with Rich Gibson and Antinous. I apologize for implying you were an apologist. :)

FWIW, the current occupation of Afghanistan was started specifically to punish and rout out the Taliban sponsors of Al Q, which it did appear to succeed at for a while, until the EYE was turned from the BALL.

At any rate, Afghanistan wasn't about plunder. Maybe power a bit, but I feel that was justified under the circumstances.

NOW, it's a mess. Didn't have to be, though.

Takuan, and that (#34) justifies a religious judiciary who sentences a man to death for distributing critical thought?

I'm with Woolie and Urinal Pooper (eesh!) - I'm stunned to find so many people so vigorously apologizing this heinous behavior as "not so cut and dry" (#5), and otherwise contorting themselves to defend a religion which every day in the open commits the same crimes for which people continuously revile Christianity for having commited in the Middle Ages, when elsewhere on Boing-Boing no tolerance is afforded atrocities of copyright enforcement or attempts by the US or Canadian government to limit freedom of expression through support of corporate interests.

Why is freedom of speech good for us, but "not so cut and dry" for Afghanis?

Oh, and Dr. T. Akuan, I wonder did you study at university under the renowned Dr. Acula? :)

Takuan, I love how every defense of Islam you and others try to mount only displays obviously, and on it's face, how bankrupt and destructive the ideology is.

Though you clearly mean to be sardonic, I'll answer the serious point beneath it - I don't believe that western civilization has been improved by the collusion (probably unintentional, but nonetheless mutually supportive) of big oil and Islam in keeping the people sitting on huge oil deposits ignorant and powerless. To whatever degree this circumstance keeps oil cheap it has not benefited Western Civ, as artificially priced resources warp behavior away from reality, and behavior always must snap back to reality eventually... the further it is warped, the more violent the snap. And most of us can see there is a big snap a-comin'.

So, remind me again of how this example illustrates how a modern civilization has been improved by close association with Islam?

#20 - I very specifically asked about what modern civilization has been improved by close association with Islam.

I'm aware of the mathematical contributions of medieval Islamic thinkers - but how long has it been since Islamic culture rewarded free and scientific thought?

I'm aware that medieval Islam preserved the books of the ancient philosophers, but how long has it been since Islamic culture accorded respect to scientific, enlightened thought.

It isn't much of an argument in favor of your ideology when the medieval iteration of it was more open and enlightened than the modern one.

And the Inquisition? Really? That was some huge setback for Islam? If I remember right, Muslim armies invaded and conquered Spain, and these conquerers were eventually expelled. I don't think the post-expulsion inquisition was much of a problem for the majority of Muslims in the world, and certainly Muslims weren't the exclusive targets of it.

If the worst example of Fundamentalist Christianity you can throw out is from the middle ages, and the best examples of Islam you can cite are also from the middle ages, you're not doing a good job of convincing me I'm wrong about the present.

Frankly, I wish all the death sentences for things like apostasy, homosexuality, insultings-of-the-prophet and having-the-NERVE-to-be-raped could be amended instead to be sentences of exile to the United States.

I mean, really, same result for the fundamentalist killers - the people they hate will be gone - and big plus to the US - we get a lot of new demonstrably courageous freethinkers.

Win win, eh?

To #15 - In what way has the US been improved by a close association with Islam? I don't see what I'd call a close association. Simply welcoming individuals who adhere to the religion as equal citizens isn't exactly a close association.

I understand what you're saying about singling out the more violent and destructive part of an ideology as representative of the whole, and I used to have a great deal more sympathy with that idea... but honestly - the large majority of self identified fundamentalist Muslims really do seem to buy in to these violent and destructive rules and actions. A very large amount of Muslims who maybe don't self-identify as fundamentalist seem to willingly grant the more fundamentalist violent ones moral and religious authority. I don't see any large, outspoken movements to rein this hateful destructive behavior in. And I am paying attention, I am reading widely and looking actively at multiple sources of news from around the world. I don't see it.

I don't think it is intellectually honest to deny that a widespread and deeply rooted anti-civil, hate fueled streak runs deep in all Islam. Fundies act on it, but the majority seem to tacitly condone it.

I know that not all individuals are like this, and the Muslims I know here certainly aren't - but I'd say the subset of Muslims who go to the trouble to immigrate to the US are probably the cream of the enlightened minority within this religion. Most do not appear to be so enlightened.

Ok #9, a thought experiment:

A) In a community populated by an overwhelming majority of self identified fundamentalist Christians, you publicly address a popular religious leader by telling him "The Gospels are a step or three more purely evil than Sharia".

B) In a community populated by an overwhelming majority of self identified fundamentalist Muslims, you publicly address a popular religious leader by telling him "Sharia is a step or three more purely evil than the Gospels".

QUESTION: In which community are you more likely to not be killed as a direct result of what you said?

You might also note that somebody today has indeed murdered many many many people in Iraq, and it wasn't the US Military.

Is Islam a threat to civilization? Maybe not in the existential sense, but point me to a modern civilization that has actually been improved by a close association with Islam.

These things are actually mentioned in William Gibson's newest novel - I thought he made them up.